Paul_P

I only build wheels every few years, so things have time to change in between...

I'm preparing to build two 26" disc brake wheels to go with Schwalbe Marathon Mondials 50-559.
Front is Velocity Cliffhanger rim, DH-UR700-3D dynamo hub.
Rear is Cliffhanger rim and Deore FH-M6000 hub with 9-speed cassette.
Both wheels are 36 spokes, 3-cross.

In the past I did all spoke-related computation by hand, pretty tedious and worrisome waiting to find out if my calculations were correct or not. I now see that there are spoke calculators on the net. https://kstoerz.com is one that seems pretty complete. Is it safe to rely on its results ?

I need spokes. I like cyccommute's reasoning and experience so I've been thinking about DT Swiss Alpine III's, but can't find them anywhere that's accessible to me. The only other spoke I've found with 2.3 mm heads are Sapim Strong's. They're butted and 2.0mm for the rest. BikeHubStore has them. I've used 2.00mm straight spokes in the past so it would be a step up in strength, for a bit more weight.

I've found very few comments on the Strongs. Anyone have any experience with them ?

Tourist in MSN

I have no experience with the Alpine or the Strong spokes. I have used Wheelsmith spokes in the past, but they are out of business now. And several of my wheels were with Wheelsmith spokes and Sapim nipples when the Wheelsmith spokes were still available. My last wheel build was with Sapim Race 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes and nipples. I always use brass nipples.

I last used a spreadsheet called SpocalcExpress.xls for my spoke lengths, it worked ok. I do not recall where I got it from. That was in 2021.

And in 2017, I used this site for a spoke length calculator: https://www.sapim.be/spoke-calculator Used that for two different wheels.

I have had good luck with published rim data for ERD, but sometimes that is incorrect. I had a pair of rims in 2010 that had two different ERDs, I do not recall where I got the numbers. I e-mailed the company support line and they sent me an e-mail with a single ERD for those rims, which I used and it worked.

I do not have the tools to measure ERD, but it is really simple to do if you have the tools for that. I have thought about making a set, but never got around to it. And now I have not built up a wheel for five years, not sure if I will ever build another, so making the tools is not a high priority.

I assume that Deore rear hub has quarter inch ball bearings and steel axle. My last touring rear wheel has the XT hub, M756A, that hub has steel axle and quarter inch ball bearings. I am really happy with that hub and wheel. My hub:
https://www.sjscycles.com/Drawings/Sh...A_Tech_Doc.pdf

Note that some XT hubs use different axle and bearing sizes, I am partial to that M756A hub.

I have no comments on Cliffhanger rims or the dynohub, have not used them. But I have three wheels with Velocity rims, very happy with them.

Paul_P

Yes, 1/4" ball bearings and (I hope) a steel axle.

During my research I came across some unsettling accounts related to XT hub failures (like Deore XT freehub problem), and not knowing enough about which ones were or were not affected, I just decided to stay away from XT all together. I didn't like the idea of an aluminum axle either and thought all XTs would have them. But yours is steel so I imagine you have a really nice hub.

RCMoeur 

If the Velocity Cliffhangers are anywhere near as strong as their Deep Vs, you could build the wheel with j-bent & threaded vermicelli noodles and still end up with a bulletproof wheel. I have three wheelsets built with Deep Vs before they discontinued the 26" 559 size, all built with straight-gauge 2.0 stainless spokes, and not a bit of trouble from any of them. I joked that a strong Velocity rim might be the worst one for a novice wheelbuilder to use, as the rim strength would mask any errors in spoke tension and truing.

Tourist in MSN

I am not sure when the XT aluminum axle versions came out but I think they initially were M770. I also have an XT that is an M752 on wheel I built up in 2004, that wheel is on my rando bike. And a bike I built up in 2010 with I think a M760. The M756A is basically an old design that they still make due to popular demand. I am not sure what the A stands for, but that hub design without the A was around before discs, so maybe the A means disc?

The problems with the aluminum axle were two-fold, the axle was much bigger in diameter, that meant the ball bearings had to be smaller to fit. And some of the early ones did not have a good enough connection holding the freehub to the hub shells, and some of those wheels failed early on because the freehub connection was poor. But, generally we do not hear much about those problems any more. That said, I still want the steel axle variety.

I have those steel axle XT hubs on two touring bikes and my rando bike. That said, I see no reason to not use a Deore either, so I am not suggesting you change, you have made plans and those plans look good so stick with them.

csport

I have used Sapim Strong spokes, have not had any problem with them.
FWIW, bikehubstore also has Sapim Force (2.2-1.8-2.0) - probably Sapim's closest spoke to DT Alpine III.
It also has Sapim D-Lite (2.0-1.65-2.0) spokes which you can use on the NDS rear/DS front to achieve a similar relative stretch of the DS/NDS spokes.

kstoerz.com's calculator is great, it also produces a drawing of the laced wheel, it is useful if you are trying to follow the rule that the hub label should be seen through the valve hole in the rim.

Paul_P

Thanks csport, for the useful information on the spokes. Nice to know that I'll be able to get what I want and that I have a triple butted option. Interesting tip about the hub label, I'm going to have to digest that a bit. I also came across today, which I'd seen before but haven't had time to think through, this bit in the Shimano service manual for hubs :


Not intuitively obvious what they're talking about. Guess I have some headscratching to do. It's been a while since I've thought about lacing patterns.

Paul_P

I just looked at the parts diagrams for both 756 and 756A and they're both for 6-bolt discs. The only obvious difference is that the 756 has what looks like a more elaborate seal on the freehub end. The M752 and M760 look to be for rim brakes, but that makes sense, I didn't think you had disc brakes on your touring bikes (?).

I need a hub for Centermount discs and the current XT model for that, with quick-release, is the FH-M8000 but it has the small 3/16" ball bearings and what looks like an aluminum axle. I haven't been to find any XT model, even NOS, with what I need. As you say, I'm good with the Deore, which I got for a good price.

Tourist in MSN

The only disc brake I have is on the rear of my light touring bike, that uses the M756A hub. That bike is rim brake front. All my other bikes are rim brake.

Sounds like you have most of this figured out. When I built up my first wheels in 2004 after several decades of not doing any wheel building since the 1970s, I had to re-learn this stuff. I found the late Sheldon Brown article to be very useful.
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Wow, I just realized that the article I linked above, I first looked at that article two decades ago. And it is still out there as a reference after two decades.

He mentions the part about looking through the valve hole to see the hub label, also the rim label to the drive side.

He discusses the part about spoke heads on the inside or the outside for the leading or trailing spokes, etc. You can do it either way, I have done it both ways. Note near the bottom of the article, the header: Which Side of the Flange? That has a good discussion of that. I used to buy spoke protectors for my wheels, but have found them much harder to find, so I am now more concerned about jamming my chain between the spokes and cassette than I used to be because I no longer install spoke protectors. But some people prefer the other way. I do not think it matters much which way you do it.

Paul_P

Thanks Tourist for all the useful info. Speaking of spoke guards, I've always liked them and had them installed on my bikes. I even prefer the look with them than without.

I just lived an old-age moment when yesterday, figuring I had finished either buying or locating all the parts I needed for the wheels, I remembered spoke guards and, since I'm going to a new cassette with a low 34, started to hunt around on the internet to find a big enough one. Turns out Shimano makes them and they have an extensive table to size them. Of course, I couldn't find anybody that actually sold them. Two days ago I received my Carver rigid fork that'll be replacing my cheap suspension fork. When I opened the box yesterday, I was very confused when I discovered a spoke guard in the box along with the fork, exactly what I needed and had been searching for. It even appeared on the paper invoice. I have absolutely no memory of having gone through the process of selecting it and adding it to my order a few weeks ago when I ordered the fork from bikeman.com. Anyway, all that to say that if you need one, they are still available, from bikeman.

robow

Speaking to "spoke protectors", I have always built my wheels without them or often removed them on a purchased wheel, just because you know, that could never happen to me and I'm too cool. Last fall on a century ride with a friend who rages against those dork discs, he lodged his chain somehow into the space between the spokes and cassette and it could not be budged. His ride ended and with a red face. We even had a cassette removal tool but the chain was placing such great pressure on the cassette pushing it outward that the lock ring couldn't be removed without enhanced leverage at home on the bench and a few spokes were very damaged.
Had that happened on a tour....hmmmm ?

Paul_P

I've just crash-coursed wheel lacing to freshen up my memories. What's new to me this time around is disc brakes which add a twist (really an offset) to what I'm already used to. I used straight gauge DT Swiss Champion 2.00mm spokes everywhere on all 8 wheels I did last time around. Now I read about playing with the spoke guage to better balance tensions between sides when offsets are involved.

Putting it all together, and wanting a strong wheel at the possible expense of weight, I've come up with this first recipe :

Front wheel : Disc Side : 2.3 - 2.00 butted, Non Disc Side : 2.3 - 1.8 - 2.0 triple butted.
Rear wheel : Drive Side : 2.3 - 2.00 butted, Non Drive Side : 2.3 - 1.8 - 2.0 triple butted.

I've still to wrap my head around lacing patterns as there are many theories and practices and they aren't all in harmony.
Especially for a rear disc brake wheel with drive-pulling on one side and brake-pulling on the other, and two offsets which I have yet to clarify.

Paul_P

It looks like Sapim no longer makes the triple butted Force spokes (2.2-1.8-2.0). They are apparently still available from bikehubstore.com, as csport pointed out, but only in black. To get what I proposed above, in silver, I had to mix spoke manufacturers and vendors. The Sarim Strongs (2.3 - 2.0) I'm getting from bikehubstore.com and then DT Swiss Alpine III's (2.3-1.8-2.0) from modernbike.com. Feels a bit weird mixing spokes like that, but I'm presuming it's not a problem.

I was a bit surprised that for both front and back wheels, the spokes are the same length left and right. I guess it's due to the disc brakes, though up front even with the dish they're close enough. In the past with non-disc, I've had to go with
three different sizes on the same bike.

Tourist in MSN

When spokes come in lengths in 2mm increments, that can happen.

I had slighly different length calculations on my last dynohub wheel with a disc hub, but they were within the same 2mm increment. Thus, same spoke length.

And my last rear wheel was a disc hub. Different lengths, but I used spoke nipple washers on the drive side but not on the disc side, that resulted in both sides using the same spoke length because they were within the 2mm increment for spoke length.

Paul_P

Now that I have to buy the spokes individually it's not a problem to have different sizes. In the past, I bought them in boxes of 100 and it was worth it to stretch things a bit to get two different sizes close enough to use the same length. And as you mention, with the 2mm steps and disc brakes, it's possible to bring them together.

This latest round was pretty expensive, but still well worth it to get a couple of really nice wheels. Buying from two different vendors across a border made the shipping about as much as the spokes. The Alpine III's are over 2$ each, while the Strongs are only 79c. Still way cheaper than buying boxes of 100.

Paul_P

If I'm reading this correctly, they promote having the pull spoke (drive or brake) on the outside of the hub, in line with Jobst Brandt and contrary to Sheldon Brown. Interesting that debate. My brain doesn't feel up to simulating the two to bring me to a personal choice and the above way seems to be the most popular in what I've scanned recently. So that's the way I'll go.

Tourist in MSN

Yup, I used to buy Wheelsmith spokes, bags of 50 spokes. So, I have a lot of spokes on the shelf that will never get used.

Last time I bought spokes was from Bike24, in Germany. Bought Sapim 2.0/1.8.2.0 spokes. I bought the exact number that I needed, they were quite affordable. But their shipping cost is quite high for the first thing in the shipping box, so you really want to minimize the number of orders with them.

Rick

Before Covid my son purchased a fuji touring bicycle that was on sale through an English online retailer. in my research I found that the wheels were not very strong. I purchased the Sapim Spokes that were strai/ht gauge J bend. I used Ryde Andra 30 rims with 36 holes. I built the front with a Son 28 hub. The shipping was 20 euros. The savings were quite dramatic. Sapim has the Polyax nipples and they allow better spoke alignment at the rim, especially with larger bicycle hubs.