sth

I am going to build up my first wheel shortly with a new Phil Wood disc hub to my current Mavic XM719 rim, 36 holes. The bike is a commuter and fully loaded tourer. I am a lightweight. Going from an XT hub to the Wood hub so the current spokes are likely too long. I told the shop I would prefer DT Competition, double butted. They have suggested cutting and threading their own spokes. These would be straight guage. Is there a really strong case to be made for the butted spokes or could I go for the straight ones and count on building a good strong wheel? Are butted spokes far superior to straight guage?

markjenn

Everybody says that DB's are stronger, but whether the case is "really strong" or the resulting wheel is "far superior" is hard to say. I'm sure you can get a good strong wheel with straight, but if you're going to all the trouble to build your own wheel, I'd get what you want.

- Mark

spider-man

^^ What he said. Especially since you sprung for a Phil hub. Sounds like the shop is proposing the easiest strategy for them.

urbanknight

From what I've read here on the forums and elsewhere, double butted is more durable and straight is cheaper.

Retro Grouch 

I suspect that the shop doesn't want to buy a wholesale lot of 100 spokes and have 64 leftovers that they'll likely never sell. If the wheel takes different spoke lengths it could require 2 wholesale lots of 100 spokes. That might change the economics of the whole project.

I build a few wheels and I have access to spokes at wholesale prices. For a few recent wheelbuilds I've bought the exact number of spokes that I wanted from wheelbuilder.com.

waterrockets 

Double butted will build a stronger wheel. The spokes themselves are not stronger, but they are EXACTLY as strong where they are likely to break: the elbow. DB spokes build a stronger wheel because they have to stretch more to reach tension, which means they require a greater wheel deformation to go slack when you hit a bump or crash. So, this also means that their tension changes less in a normal load cycle, which means less fatigue.

If you can afford it, get double butted.

Severian

another vote here for double-butted. The ONLY benefit to straight gauge, as far as I'm concerned, is price. They're cheaper than anything else.

urbanknight

Something tells me local shops are fine if you mail order spokes. Keeping them in stock just isn't practical for them, and they don't want to buy just a few, so that's one of the things I don't feel any guilt about ordering online.

sth

Thanks for confirming what I am thinking. The shop is a good one and I think the guy knows his stuff but they all cringe when I ask for 36 spokes from a box of 100 with the balance hard to sell in the future. I am sure he is trying to take the easy way out. I will stick with the DT spokes.

tellyho

Plenty of places out there to get exactly the spokes you want. Unless you're out of $$, get DB.

Barabaika

Zinn has a diferent opinion in his book:

You can try Sapim spokes from www.biktetoolsetc.com
They have better selection of sizes and sell them in bags of 20.

cheaux

Straight gauge is IMO easier for novices to build and true.

waterrockets 

That's actually a good point. I meant to say double-butted builds a more durable wheel. Actually, more stretch means less loosening, because the spokes are less likely to loose tension.

theopowers

Strange that Zinn would say that. According to Sheldon (see end of this quote), butted spokes are not just "as strong" but actually stronger at the elbow because they can fit perfectly into the hub hole, since the nipple threads can be thinner.

Sheldon said:

Double-butted spokes do more than save weight. The thick ends make them as strong in the highly-stressed areas as straight-gauge spokes of the same thickness, but the thinner middle sections make the spokes effectively more elastic. This allows them to stretch (temporarily) more than thicker spokes.

As a result, when the wheel is subjected to sharp localized stresses, the most heavily stressed spokes can elongate enough to shift some of the stress to adjoining spokes. This is particularly desirable when the limiting factor is how much stress the rim can withstand without cracking around the spoke hole.

# Triple-butted spokes, such as the DT Alpine III, are the best choice when durability and reliability is the primary aim, as with tandems and bicycles for loaded touring. They share the advantages of single-butted and double-butted spokes. The DT Alpine III, for instance, is 2.34 mm (13 gauge) at the head, 1.8 mm (15 gauge) in the middle, and 2.0 mm (14 gauge) at the threaded end.

Single- and triple-butted spokes solve one of the great problems of wheel design: Since spokes use rolled, not cut threads, the outside diameter of the threads is larger than the base diameter of the spoke wire. Since the holes in the hub flanges must be large enough to fit the threads through, the holes, in turn are larger than the wire requires. This is undesirable, because a tight match between the spoke diameter at the elbow and the diameter of the flange hole is crucial to resisting fatigue-related breakage.

Since single- and triple-butted spokes are thicker at the head end than at the thread end, they may be used with hubs that have holes just large enough to pass the thick wire at the head end.

theopowers

Check out ebikestop.com for a large selection of DT spokes in packs of thirty-six.

Barabaika

If you want strong spokes, buy the Strong spokes.
Sapim Strong: https://www.sapim.be/index.php?st=pro...&detail=butted

A spoke manufacturer usually uses technologies to make sure both straight and double-butted spokes are worry-free.

I see a problem with custom-cut spokes - they are expensive.

DDYTDY

Excell Sports will sell you what you need.
https://www.excelsports.com/new.asp?p...jor=1&minor=30

sivat

On a properly built wheel, this would never be an issue. If you tension the spokes enough during the initial build, they will always be under tension and the nipples won't have any opportunity to loosen. Zinn is usually pretty reliable, but I guess I won't trust him to build my wheels. Especially since what both Gerd Schraner and Jobst Brandt say exactly contradicts Zinn.

urbanknight

Not really a contradiction but a seperate comment, really.

sivat

Also, oddsandendos.com has pretty good prices on individual spokes.

urbanknight

^ Too bad their site has been under reconstruction for over a month now.

sth

Why would this be?

blamp28

Less likely to see any spoke windup when tensioning making it easier to get a good even tension job on the first try. Even, balanced and proper tension is the most significant factor in wheel life.

operator

Uh. Who cares? You should be building wheels the proper way, on the first try. Nipples have to be turned beyond what is needed then backed off. And wheels have to be stress relieved.

Using straight gauge does not eliminate or render unecessary these two critical wheelbuilding skills. Less windup because of straight gauge spokes should not be used as a crutch.

Al1943

Less chance of stretch.
But the advantages of double butted spokes far outweigh the disadvantages.