bellweatherman

I was wondering which is better. Loose balls or caged balls? If I have a bottom bracket (old-school) that uses a retainer to hold the ball bearings, should I ditch the retainer and just run loose balls?

And what about this n-1 business? What I mean by that is, let's say that after I take out the retainer, I can put more balls into the assembly. Should I fill up as many balls as will ride on the race and then take out 1 ball, hence n-1? Or should I just fit as many balls as possible that will sit evenly on the race?

operator

1) Cages speed assembly and wear over loose ball
2) n-1 balls

tellyho

Loose is better - more bearing surface to bear weight. They are, however, more work.

Definitely n-1. Don't know why. Someone on the forum is actually of an n-2 persuasion, after having a problem with n-1.

bellweatherman

What's so great about n-1? Isn't the idea to spread the load as best you can? So, therefore n minus anything is going to spread the load alot worse than n minus nothing. And if your goal is to use less ball bearings, then why even through away the retainer?

tellyho

Just stole a decent explanation from the C&V forum:

Each time 2 bearings touch, the friction between them is an issue since the speed of the contact point is in direct opposition direction wise... If they are held in so closely that they can't float away from each other friction between the bearings is an issue.


Not sure if it's true, but it sure does sound good!

probable556

I thought this thread was about cycling shorts!

JustBrowsing

Same here. Although, I have to admit that I was scared of finding out what the "cage" was...

cascade168

"n-1" is correct for hubs and BBs. "n-2" is for headsets - taken directly from Barnett's Manual. So, it's not just "someone on the forum".

Hubs and BBs have, pretty much, a constant rotating motion, whereas headset bearings are not moving around much at all. "n-2" introduces a randomness to where the balls position themselves to reduce the occurence of brinnelling.

cascade168

I think something that's being misunderstood in this thread is what "n" means. "n" is the number of bearings it takes for the first occurence of the bearing set to jumble. "Jumble" means that when the bearing set is test seated the loose balls do not lie in a perfect circle, because there are too many bearings to allow it. So, you eliminate one bearing until you can get the loose balls to line up in a perfect circle. This will almost always end up with the number of loose bearings at least one more than you would have in a caged bearing set. The goal is to use more bearings and distribute the load more widely. Not less, as you stated.

In other words, another way of looking at what "n-1" means is that "[(first occurence of jumble) - 1]" would be optimum for hubs and BBs.

tellyho

Interesting; I'm glad you explained that, as my understanding of "n" was the number of balls to sit in a perfect circle.

operator

Cascade is correct - it's n-2 for headsets.

N, is the amount that you can put in before you have to stack the bearings vertically.

Sheldon Brown

Loose is definitely better. In most cases it permits you to fit more balls in.

Standard bottom brackets use 11 1/4" balls on each side, but most of the retainers have fewer. Saves a teeny bit of money for the manufacturer, but won't roll as smoothly nor last as long.

Sheldon "It Goes To Eleven!" Brown

bellweatherman

OK, thanks. So ditching the retainer will, sometimes, allow me to sit more balls in. And that is good to distribute the weight more evenly.

I think people are confused about what "n" actually means. I did a search and some people are saying that "n" is the number of balls that fits in a perfect circle. Others say otherwise. So, this controversy about the n, n-1, and n-2 maybe relates to nobody really having a standard definition of what "n" actually is.

cascade168

Sheldon, your amps or your hubs???? ;-)))

JanMM

Unless there is some bicycle-specific tool that I don't know about, a hemostat is your best friend for dealing with loose bearings.

bellweatherman

What's "n"? Link please. And what is a hemostat?

JanMM

Google hemostat. Or, here's one link: https://www2.northerntool.com/product-1/478861.htm

barba

A hemostat is a medical instrument that looks a tad like a pair of scissors with pincers instead on blades.

Edit: JanMM beat me to it.

bellweatherman

That's cool and all, but what does a hemostat have to do with any of this? I still can't find a reliable link for what "n" is.

JanMM

You can pick up a ball with a hemostat and put it where it needs to go with the hemostat. You can fill a race and then remove one, if need be.

bellweatherman

Uh, gee that's really cool. Next time I'm messing around with some loose ball bearings I'm remember that nugget and run on down to the local hospital and ask for one of these things from the surgeon. Yeah, just so I can pick up some ball bearings.

What is "n"? Link?

JunkYardBike

It helps stop the bleeding when the veins in your forehead burst after an hour of attempting to adjust loose bearing balls in a cheap headset.

operator

Replace 'n' with the amount of balls you can fit into a race completley without having to start stacking them vertically? K.?

Moose

Here's a link

cascade168

Excellent !!!