schnee

I wanted to build a *****in' set of custom wheels. I was hoping for some BF wisdom.

The backstory:
I'm 6'-3", 250 pounds, and ride my fixie on fairly rough road/city conditions. I don't ride track, or race, so I'm not that worried about weight or aero; I want *bombproof*. I ride a front brake. I have an OK bike now, and I want these wheels to come with me to a new awesome build (possibly custom) within the next year or two.

Wheels I have in mind:
- Formula hubs
- Velocity deep V rims
- 36 spokes laced 3x

Now for the questions:
- Since I'm a Clydesdale++, I'm loath to go for less than 36 spoke 3 cross, even on deep Vs. Am I being paranoid? I love the aesthetic of fewer spokes or crossing, but... I need to be realistic. I taco'd a MTB wheel a few months ago doing XC.
- Are Paul or Phil that much better than Formula? It scares me to have hubs more expensive than the entire first bike purchase.
- Would I be better off with Fusions? Toughness first, weight second, aero is a distant third.

Thanks.

jet sanchEz

Miche Primatos are very nice hubs and are not super-expensive; I'd say the quality is far superior to Formulas.

schnee

I only found them in silver.

If it's worth it to spend the cash on Paul or Phil, I'll do it. I just don't want to over-buy, or get a hub that's designed for a 150-lb. trackie instead of a 250-lb. commuter. So, in the world of MTB, 'XT' instead of 'XTR'.

Pipebomb

I ride formulas on all my bikes except one and I am also a clydesdale 6' 240. Saying that, yes they are much better maybe not so much that you will notice a huge performance gap now as much as you will later(you get what you pay for).If you want something that will last as long as you do go with phils or pauls. Like jet sanchez said primatos are super nice also consider used dura ace or record hubs.

drac_vamp

spokes will make a difference, and are not an area to skimp on. also, go with a very very trusted wheel-builder. i think a lot of the "strength" of a wheel is more in how it's built and who is building it. a very good wheel builder using the same materials as a not-so-good builder will produce a wheel that lasts so much longer.

schnee

OK, specifics on spokes? I use 14/15 double-butted on my MTB. Same deal on these?

drac_vamp

sounds about right to me. someone else might be able to chime in who has more experience with wheelbuilds than myself.

MacG

Definitely use high quality double-butted spokes. The spokes are what make the wheel. Building a strong hoop or a strong hub is simple enough, and you can't go wrong with deep Vs and any decent hub. If you skimp on the spokes, you're pretty much asking for trouble.

Stick with stainless steel DT Swiss spokes and good brass nipples and you should be fine as long as you find a good builder.

Jim at the Hiawatha Cyclery in Minneapolis builds killer wheels for big guys somewhat regularly. There's probably a good shop closer to your area, but if you don't know who to talk to, give Jim a call or email and ask for his advice. He'll give it to you straight and I know he builds great wheels.

alaska

go 4x. strong enough for keirin, should be able to handle your weight.

Learn_not2burn

I'm intrigued at the advice for him to get double-butted spokes... why?

srsly

this is a great thread. sure there's a bunch of this same info scattered about but it's really nice to have it in one place....

anyhow, not to hijack your thread, but if it's ok i have a question, maybe give you another idea?

i think i'm sold on pauls or phils (you can get black 32h pauls at universal cycles for a decent price right now). i've been told to build with either DT Swiss or Wheelsmith spokes. any appreciable difference? or both solid? i've also been tossing back and forth between DeepVs and Mavic CXP33s. the mavics are a little lighter at 470g, but a little lower profile ~24mm as opposed to the 30mm DeepV. anyone ridden the mavics?

steelduck

Most wheel builders say that the double butted are stronger in use than "straight" spokes...

Here is what Sheldon Brown says:
"The Double-Butted DT Competition is a great all-around spoke. These Swiss-made stainless steel spokes have three thicknesses:

* 2.0 (14 gauge) mm at the ends.
* 1.8 mm (15 gauge) in the middle.

Not only does this save weight, but the thinner middle section gives the spoke and the wheel greater elasticity for increased durability."

I weight 190lbs and I have allways found the wheels with double butted spokes much nicer to ride - espcially with a wheel that has hight flange hubs and deed V's -> stiff wheel.

srls: My friend has Mavic CXP33s and they are really nice wheels. Cannot compare to Deep-V:s though as I have never ridden those. I have Mavic Open Pros which are a bit lighter than the CXP33s and seem to hold true on the uneven streets of Helsinki.

srsly

that's what i've heard about the Open Pros. good ride, stays true.

sorry for all the questions and a hijack, but can someone give me a $.10 explanation of why i'd want something aero like a cxp33 or deepV as opposed to something lower profile like an Open Pro? i'm not very heavy, 160lbs tops, and the roads i ride on aren't THAT bad so the bombproof strength of a deeper rim isn't a weight, or crater riding concern....

ZachS

the theory is that DB spokes flex and twist easier in the long, strong middle than the threaded or bent ends, which are the parts more likely to break. less motion in the breaky parts = fewer broken spokes.

schnee

Just priced Mavic CXP33's, and they are ~30% more expensive than Deep Vs or Fusions, and ~15% lighter. Are they known to be significantly stronger, more durable, etc.? I totally dig my Mavics on my MTB, so I doubt I'd be going wrong.

Gotta admit, one thing pushing me to a Velocity over the other choices is aesthetic. I love the look of a non-machined wheel, and I'd only want the front machined where I have the brake. I dig that 'industrial functional' look after I saw it on a bike here.

AfterThisNap

For some reason, every set of miche hubs I've seen that have been ridden on the street for more than a few months have crunchy bearings. Pass on the Dura ace and record, as dedicated track hubs don't seal worth a damn compared to even Formulas.

I personally would run 14g straight DT or Wheelsmith spokes 3x. I understand the rationale for having DB spokes for more elasticity, but at 200+ lbs it's hard sharp-edged impacts that are the biggest threat to your rims. Downhill and Freeride mountainbike wheels use straight gauge spokes for a reason.

The Deep V is a good choice, as is the CXP33 (I ride them), but you may want to consider medium profile rims like the mavic CXP22 or the Velocity Dyad; though materials have become more advanced over the years, very deep profile rims are still prone to cracking if the rider is very aggressive or heavy.

I work at a shop in a city with some of the crappiest roads in the country, and I see (and fix) many...many FUBARed wheels a day. Wheels beneath clydesdale riders have it the worst. The bottom line is that a 36h 14g/formula/deep V is well above the minimum in terms of strength for someone of your height and weight. Plus, it should be relatively cheap.

If you do go with DB spokes, choose wheelsmith. Though I think they are an equivalent spoke in terms of performance to DT, the butting is more pronounced and they hold their shine a lot better for some reason. Personal preference

MKRG

On my cross bike I ran CXP-23's and they were strong as ****. I just built up the rear with a 33 which is supposedly an upgrade. It's nice so far. The original was killed by a pothole. It would have killed any rim. I vary between 200-210

you

I think, Jobst Brandt prefers wheelsmiths to DTs. Something about the spoke running more flush along the flange because of the elbow length. I've heard that 36h wheels are preferably laced 4x, but I've never experimented with it.

Wil Davis

I've found that building 36 x4 on small flange hubs tends to be a bit cramped, and it can be difficult to replace broken spokes. I think I would build 36 x3 on those hubs, and use large(r) flange hubs for 36 x4.

- Wil

srsly

that's some good info, thanks. so i guess bottom line for a medium sized guy like me is: get what you want, you're not gonna break it. the only things i would really have to consider are price and weight. if that's correct, i'm thinkin' either CXP with DB Wheelsmiths would give me a pretty comfy and durable ride.


just what i was looking for, thanks

schnee

AfterThisNap, excellent info and post, thanks. I'll post pics when I get the wheels.

acavengo

AfterThisNap, do you mind sharing the name of the shop you work at? Also, how would you rate the wheelbuilding at the shop? (I know you work there so it may be a tough question to answer)

genericbikedude

AFAIK, the difference between wheelsmith and dt butting is whether the butt comes in a jump or a gradual taper. I've always used dt competition with good results.

For rims, get something that is not anodized, as it will be liss likely to crack, and won't wear away at the braking surface. Silver (natural metal color) is best when you run a brake. I've only ever built on CR18's, and Mavic MA40s, so I can't speak on rim quality for large people. I can say however that for your first build, get rims that don't have a pronounced seam, as it is annoying when working on the vertical true. Sun rims are especially bad with the seam, but this only matters in building, and not in riding.

Lastly, no wheel is ever completely "bomb proof." The whole point of wheel building is gaining autonomy over a part of the technology that you enjoy/rely upon. Once you build, you will know how to true.

Hubs: I like loose ball, but there are no well-sealed loose ball track hubs out there. Something about cartridges just doesn't sit right. Call me retro. Anything above suzue jr and you're fine though.

Pipebomb

I ride with cxp33 laced 3x(DB on one straight on the other) to formulas on two out of four of my bikes. One of the reasons I went with mavic instead of velocity is the guy building them said velocity drills them a little different i dont know how true that is

AfterThisNap

*****wha!?

you can get pretty damn close, you just have to compromise with weight.



I think our bikes want to fight each other