C.I.D. equals Eisentraut? Something else?
04-04-06, 07:13 AM
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C.I.D. equals Eisentraut? Something else?
As those of you who follow the "Catch of the Day" thread know, I recently uncovered a C.I.D. bicycle, equiped with a nice group (mess?) of hi end Japanese, Italian, and French components. An astute member of Bikeforums sent me the following info . (I'm not going to post a link here because it contains at least one email addy and two actual names, which I'm assuming the posters would prefer to keep private). In part the discussion reads:
The shop in question was the old Georgetown Cycle Sport. It would seem apparent that my bike came from this shop. This begs the question, what is it?
A few facts, mixed with suppositions and assumptions. You can seperate 'em if you like:
1) The bike is English thread throughout. We can thus eliminate the Paris Sport imports, like the Bertins. We may not be able to eliminate the Paris Sport custom builds, but the sources I have indicate that Cuevas started there in 1976; it would seem the Georgetown cyclery was closed by then (also, see point #2). Limongi also worked for P-S, but I haven't been able to determine when he started.
2) The serial number runs in a simple number-number-letter-letter-number-number fashion, and is stamped on the bottom bracket shell. The first two numbers would seem to indicate year of manufacture, 74 for 1974. This would match the time the shop was open and the first generation dura-ace on the bike, assuming the bike was built up at the shop when purchased. The second letter may actually be a number, as on my bike it is an "o", which may be a zero.
3) The lugs are cut-out. I'm including pics on a seperate post, as last time I posted this, two nights ago, the new server ate the post after I tried adding pics. I'm unsure if this is what is meant by a "spade" cut-out or not, so I'll let you guys help me here.
4) The rear stays do not resemble the Eisentrauts on the CR site, but then, neither does the photo of Lotek's wife's bike on the classic/vintage rides thread. No tellin', I guess.
5) My paint scheme/decals are actually silver/bronze, not silver/crimson as indicated in the quoted section above. Crimson is notoriously fugitive, however, so the transfers likely have faded.
6) The Campy drops have the above-mentioned eyelets.
Okay, folks, we have a mass of possibilities, it seems the Georgetown shop was pretty loose with these decals. So what exactly is this bike? I'm guessing it is a rebadged Eisentraut. However, I don't actually know and I have no emotional involvement in this bike being anything-- I'd just like to know. I'm a scavenger of old bikes, really, with a bit of an eye. This one's a bit beyond me.
CID and Alpine transfers were appropriately applied to Eisentrauts from
the USA, including our own designed 'Limited - a joint deal between
Albert and us - and we even had a spade-shaped die made (a whopping
$400) for our lug cut-outs. The Limited was also the Grey and crimson
'Team' bike that featured Heavy-duty 531, columbus, and Falck tubing.
many had rear dropout eyelets for those that wanted to install one of
the chrome Claude Butler rear racks - (name removed) brought in hundreds and
the bulk are somewhere unknown - i saved a half dozen over the years.
Decals were also appropriately applied to Paris Sport bikes from Rene
LaPort and Pepe Limongi from Europe, and as (name removed) mentioned, there might
have been a few USA bikes from Paris sport - Dave Moulton had a vague
association, and Cosme Saavedra and another South American also had a
hand. The line between Alpine, CID, and Paris Sport became vague at times.
Other 'official' applications were on Bob Jacksons, Mercians, MKM
(Arthur Metcalfe, Ron Kitching,Wes? Mason), Hurlow, Alec Iles(sp?)
Decals were inappropriately applied to (name removed) girlfriend's Fuji, and a
few Paramount repaints.
the USA, including our own designed 'Limited - a joint deal between
Albert and us - and we even had a spade-shaped die made (a whopping
$400) for our lug cut-outs. The Limited was also the Grey and crimson
'Team' bike that featured Heavy-duty 531, columbus, and Falck tubing.
many had rear dropout eyelets for those that wanted to install one of
the chrome Claude Butler rear racks - (name removed) brought in hundreds and
the bulk are somewhere unknown - i saved a half dozen over the years.
Decals were also appropriately applied to Paris Sport bikes from Rene
LaPort and Pepe Limongi from Europe, and as (name removed) mentioned, there might
have been a few USA bikes from Paris sport - Dave Moulton had a vague
association, and Cosme Saavedra and another South American also had a
hand. The line between Alpine, CID, and Paris Sport became vague at times.
Other 'official' applications were on Bob Jacksons, Mercians, MKM
(Arthur Metcalfe, Ron Kitching,Wes? Mason), Hurlow, Alec Iles(sp?)
Decals were inappropriately applied to (name removed) girlfriend's Fuji, and a
few Paramount repaints.
A few facts, mixed with suppositions and assumptions. You can seperate 'em if you like:
1) The bike is English thread throughout. We can thus eliminate the Paris Sport imports, like the Bertins. We may not be able to eliminate the Paris Sport custom builds, but the sources I have indicate that Cuevas started there in 1976; it would seem the Georgetown cyclery was closed by then (also, see point #2). Limongi also worked for P-S, but I haven't been able to determine when he started.
2) The serial number runs in a simple number-number-letter-letter-number-number fashion, and is stamped on the bottom bracket shell. The first two numbers would seem to indicate year of manufacture, 74 for 1974. This would match the time the shop was open and the first generation dura-ace on the bike, assuming the bike was built up at the shop when purchased. The second letter may actually be a number, as on my bike it is an "o", which may be a zero.
3) The lugs are cut-out. I'm including pics on a seperate post, as last time I posted this, two nights ago, the new server ate the post after I tried adding pics. I'm unsure if this is what is meant by a "spade" cut-out or not, so I'll let you guys help me here.
4) The rear stays do not resemble the Eisentrauts on the CR site, but then, neither does the photo of Lotek's wife's bike on the classic/vintage rides thread. No tellin', I guess.
5) My paint scheme/decals are actually silver/bronze, not silver/crimson as indicated in the quoted section above. Crimson is notoriously fugitive, however, so the transfers likely have faded.
6) The Campy drops have the above-mentioned eyelets.
Okay, folks, we have a mass of possibilities, it seems the Georgetown shop was pretty loose with these decals. So what exactly is this bike? I'm guessing it is a rebadged Eisentraut. However, I don't actually know and I have no emotional involvement in this bike being anything-- I'd just like to know. I'm a scavenger of old bikes, really, with a bit of an eye. This one's a bit beyond me.
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04-04-06, 07:19 AM
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photos.
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04-04-06, 10:18 AM
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My wife's Eisentraut (boy is it in need of repaint!) has as mentioned a different
seatstay cap/arrangement, and the fork is a semi sloping crown not a flat crown.
The lugs appear to be the same and has same cable routing treatment (not the part
but the way it was executed).
Serial number is 76L500, could yours be 74x050 or similiar?
I'm thinking your right it's an Eisentraut Limited.
Marty
seatstay cap/arrangement, and the fork is a semi sloping crown not a flat crown.
The lugs appear to be the same and has same cable routing treatment (not the part
but the way it was executed).
Serial number is 76L500, could yours be 74x050 or similiar?
I'm thinking your right it's an Eisentraut Limited.
Marty
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04-04-06, 10:59 AM
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Thanks Lotek-- I couldn't see the lug cutouts (not well, anyway) on any of the Eisentrauts I found on the web. Fork crown looks an exact match for a Nervex crown (there's five of those in the house, so I'm purty sure I'm right there). Serial number is 74AO11 or 74a011. There's a post by Ollo ollo (I think) on another thread, stating that there were fewer than thirty Eisentrauts made for this shop, so "11" might be the frame number... not sure on that info, I'm guessing, possibly sticking together unrelated bits of unconnected info.. Also, I think the bike may be a slightly different design than the actual Eisentraut limiteds, as these bikes may have been designed by the shop itself (see original post), in conjunction with Eisentraut. Questions, questions.
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04-04-06, 12:59 PM
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I agree, there are minor differences but I see Alberts hand in that
frame. The serial number I'm guessing would be 74A011 as in Zero One One.
follows alberts numbering system (if I've got that right). You could always
send an email to Albert, he does answer email.
Marty
frame. The serial number I'm guessing would be 74A011 as in Zero One One.
follows alberts numbering system (if I've got that right). You could always
send an email to Albert, he does answer email.
Marty
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04-04-06, 01:31 PM
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you could always try to contact Albert he does answer
email (I wrote him about the limited).
I'm betting that the serial number is 74A011 as in Zero One One.
Marty
email (I wrote him about the limited).
I'm betting that the serial number is 74A011 as in Zero One One.
Marty
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04-04-06, 03:08 PM
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Here are a couple of pics of other CID's for comparison:
https://homepage.mac.com/bwebel/cycli...toAlbum33.html
https://homepage.mac.com/bwebel/cycli...toAlbum34.html
Might also try mailing the originator of the posting I sent you from the CR list -- the person who authored the letter he forwarded was involved pretty heavily in the CID/Alpine lines, and might recognize the frame style as being one of the apparently myriad of builders they used. I'm thinking its an Eisentraut -- makes for a better story that way. No miracle finds like that around here.
Any way you look at it, your $100 was well spent.
https://homepage.mac.com/bwebel/cycli...toAlbum33.html
https://homepage.mac.com/bwebel/cycli...toAlbum34.html
Might also try mailing the originator of the posting I sent you from the CR list -- the person who authored the letter he forwarded was involved pretty heavily in the CID/Alpine lines, and might recognize the frame style as being one of the apparently myriad of builders they used. I'm thinking its an Eisentraut -- makes for a better story that way. No miracle finds like that around here.
Any way you look at it, your $100 was well spent.
04-04-06, 05:19 PM
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avenan- thanks, I hope you don't mind me quoting the contents of the posting you sent me... I went back and forth, and finally decided to delete all personally identifiying stuff... figured no harm. You and Lotek have been a huge help on this and I appreciate it. Thanks!
Frankly, had the first gen black dura ace group and Ideale saddle been attatched to a gas pipe Huffy, I prolly would have paid 100$ and walked off happy... this just makes it better. It's a purty nice frame, whatever it may be.
Frankly, had the first gen black dura ace group and Ideale saddle been attatched to a gas pipe Huffy, I prolly would have paid 100$ and walked off happy... this just makes it better. It's a purty nice frame, whatever it may be.
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04-05-06, 11:25 PM
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Pog: Albert said he made "a few, less than thirty" of the Alpine frames for Georgtown Cyclery in the 70s. He also said the shop closed in 76. Doesn't mean he didn't make other frames for them though. I'm in the middle of a switchover from our old computer to a new one. (complicated by a failed hard drive on the 1st new computer right after we got all our files & pictures transferred over). I will try to find & post a few of the photos I have of the Alpine details. Further confusion on my Alpine was that, being a very small frame (45cm), it was fillet brazed at the head tube but lugged at all the other joints. I didn't send any photos to Albert but he told me he didn't make frames combining fillet brazed & lugged joints on the same frame. Mine did have Eisentraut decals on the seat tube though. The old timer I got mine from said he bought the frame from Georgetown when he was working in Washington DC & that it was sold to him as an Eisentraut built frame. He had it built up here in Olympia several years later in 1978. Don
04-06-06, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Poguemahone
avenan- thanks, I hope you don't mind me quoting the contents of the posting you sent me... I went back and forth, and finally decided to delete all personally identifiying stuff... figured no harm.
Bob Hufford
Springfield, MO
04-07-06, 09:38 AM
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Photo details of the Alpine frame: When I first got the bike it had a straight bar with SunTour thumbshifters, I intended the bike for my granddaughter but even after swapping to Nitto touring bars, she outgrew it quickly. It looks like the head tube was fillet brazed due to the very small size & tight fit.
Don
Don
04-07-06, 05:58 PM
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there is one reason why i don't think it is an eisentraut. i have never seen an eisentraut where the seat stays and the chain stays attach to the rear dropouts with a rounded shape. eisentraut's have a straight shape vs. rounded. rounded to me would indicate an englsih built bike.
04-07-06, 06:22 PM
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well just to confuse matters, my wife's Limited has rounded seatstay attachment
at the seat lug but the chainstay and seatstays are fluted at the rear dropout.
I swear one of these days I'll take better (any) pictures of it (read I'm ashamed
it is in need of paint and a serious cleaning).
Marty
at the seat lug but the chainstay and seatstays are fluted at the rear dropout.
I swear one of these days I'll take better (any) pictures of it (read I'm ashamed
it is in need of paint and a serious cleaning).
Marty
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04-07-06, 06:44 PM
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I think I'm going to email Mr. Eisentraut... I've gone back and forth on it, hate to just randomly email folks. I'll give it a shot in a day or two (at work now). At worst, he'll elimate Eisentraut as a possibility; that'll at least narrow down the confusion by one builder. At best, a confirmation.
Frankly, there are differences between every one of the builders listed in the above-quoted post and this bike. It may be that the shop, who seemed to have a hand in the design of the Eisentraut bikes, requested some changes, but who knows.
It is, however, a very well built bike. Obviously built with some care. As others have noted, money well spent. I would kinda like to figure out just what it is...
Frankly, there are differences between every one of the builders listed in the above-quoted post and this bike. It may be that the shop, who seemed to have a hand in the design of the Eisentraut bikes, requested some changes, but who knows.
It is, however, a very well built bike. Obviously built with some care. As others have noted, money well spent. I would kinda like to figure out just what it is...
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04-07-06, 08:33 PM
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Note that the top eyes (seat stay caps) as shown bu ollo ollo are the same style as Albert did on the Masi GC's he made for a short period. Top of the flute edge is almost a semi circle verses an ellipse.
04-07-06, 08:34 PM
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Note that the top eyes (seat stay caps) as shown by ollo ollo are the same style as Albert did on the Masi GC's he made for a short period. Top of the flute edge is almost a semi circle verses an ellipse.
