End of the road for Shimano Sora, Claris, Tiagra, Alivio, Acera, Altus groupsets
#176
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Its all over blogs associated with car sales and the automotive world. Ford, GM & others proposed it to increase revenue without needing to sell more vehicles. Example cited is a proposal to charge for heated seats, so you guys in the upper Midwest are going to be screwed in the winter unless you pay up. Dealers are against it as they want a share of the revenue since they have to repair stuff associated with the software-controlled features. The dealers associations are also suing manufacturers in about a dozen states over it, as well as to prevent direct sales to consumers ( like Tesla does). While reading about it on the web I thought bicycle manufacturers might try it, too.
Last edited by seypat; 03-10-23 at 07:46 AM.
#177
And I sure as heck hope it's just that! What I'm saying is, who's to say that they won't eventually make everything - including the next generation of CUES - Di2, because steel derailleur cables are so 1970s? No one ever thought that the bread-and-butter 105 would ever go Di2 because everyone felt it would be against its very intrinsic workhorse nature, and yet here we are! Who's to say that this iteration of CUES isn't just a stopgap for the next-generation CUES Di2? After all, it makes sense: instead of designing and manufacturing three Di2 systems for Claris/Ultus, Sora/Acera, and Tiagra/Alivio, just make one Di2 system that's simply programmable for the cassette's number of speeds! There's nothing stopping them from building in some sort of remote metrics system into it, and eventually, some walking, talking sphincter of an investor with boardroom clout will see the financial potential of a subscription model and force it down their corporate throats! Other OEMs - from SRAM to L-twoo - will inevitably follow suit, and we'll all be living in cycling's version of 1984. I sure hope I'm just fantasizing!
#178
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It was inevitable that 105 would go electronic the second SRAM announced Rival AXS, even though Shimano were in denial for some time. I remember a few threads about that here. I can fully imagine the lower tiers going electronic too eventually, but I highly doubt it will be on a subscription model. I just don't think it fits with the market for CUES.
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#179
Senior Member
I don't see what there is to leverage in CUES with a subscription model. There is no software, no data, no online connection. Just simple, mechanical hardware. If you want to upgrade your CUES hardware, you just buy the relevant upgrade hardware. That's the whole point of making it cross-compatible. What you are suggesting above is just fantasy.
If the drivetrain companies really wanted to sell me electronic products, here's what they should do. Take whatever system they have and offer me a version of it for each DO spacing from 120 to the present. Use the same shifters/derailleurs on each. Offer it in 1x, 2x and 3x. The only thing different would be the number of gears in the back and the way the system is programmed. With no cable needed, it would be easy to do. No extra skus either except for the different cassettes or crankset options. I would be far more likely to upgrade a bike or two that way than what is currently offered. What am I missing?
This might sound like a talking head to some though. Maybe I should stop making sense.
This might sound like a talking head to some though. Maybe I should stop making sense.
#180
Senior Member
I think the subscription platform could be aimed at the high end groups. I'd rather pay a subscription to get a new set of wheels and a cassette with more gears and have my derailleurs/shifters reprogrammed than have to buy a whole new group. Then you'd just have to replace various components piecemeal as they wear out. Sounds like a plan.
#181
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My wife will never understand the real reason I drive a 20-year-old Honda which generates about as much power as I do .... that five-speed gearbox and hydraulic clutch ..... every shift is a chance at perfection, and the gear is so good, most shifts are good enough to be really satisfying. And with a 1.7 inline four, I get Lots of chances to shift.
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#182
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Saw them on that tour, in fact. Also saw David Byrne's afro-cuban thing. Very high-quality musical entertainment IMO. But uhhh .... "pop culture"? That is from the far distant past by now, friend.
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#183
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I think the subscription platform could be aimed at the high end groups. I'd rather pay a subscription to get a new set of wheels and a cassette with more gears and have my derailleurs/shifters reprogrammed than have to buy a whole new group. Then you'd just have to replace various components piecemeal as they wear out. Sounds like a plan.
Imagine getting all hyped up and kitted out for a long, hard ride---energy drinks, water, gels, picked your best-fitting bibs and gloves, psyched yourself for the hills ... wheel you bike out and you owe for a software update, but the office is closed until Monday morning Japan time ... sorry, no ride.
#184
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My wife will never understand the real reason I drive a 20-year-old Honda which generates about as much power as I do .... that five-speed gearbox and hydraulic clutch ..... every shift is a chance at perfection, and the gear is so good, most shifts are good enough to be really satisfying. And with a 1.7 inline four, I get Lots of chances to shift.
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#185
Senior Member
Yeah .... but how much would you pay each month just to be able to use your shifters?
Imagine getting all hyped up and kitted out for a long, hard ride---energy drinks, water, gels, picked your best-fitting bibs and gloves, psyched yourself for the hills ... wheel you bike out and you owe for a software update, but the office is closed until Monday morning Japan time ... sorry, no ride.
Imagine getting all hyped up and kitted out for a long, hard ride---energy drinks, water, gels, picked your best-fitting bibs and gloves, psyched yourself for the hills ... wheel you bike out and you owe for a software update, but the office is closed until Monday morning Japan time ... sorry, no ride.
#186
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I am thinking of the folks who cvome here asking "What bike should I buy?" Trying to recall (or learn) which made-up Shimano name indicates which level of refinement must make it hard for salesmen, as well, to push a product: "This model has Acero, but this one has Alivio!" "Can't modern medicine cure those conditions?"
Whoever named them Acero and Alivio was a real Azzholo. I can never keep them straight.
#187
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#188
They could do it for all of their lines if they wanted to. Once they eliminated the cable pull, a single designed RD could shift any speed going up or down the line. A FD is a FD. You can make one shift in almost any system. Remember, you thought my idea about them making a single system that would shift multilple speeds was stupid also. Let the record stand that I suggested that before the CUES news popped up. Then Shimano annouces the new system almost exactly as I suggested. I was actually more concerned that nobody picked up on my pop culture reference. Well, I got 3 likes on it so maybe a few did.
But this is well beyond what CUES is. It's not even electronic for a start.
#189
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CUES seems like a good idea to me. But I don't think they will take it as far as having a single programmable electronic hardware set for all levels. Top level components will always be more premium in design, materials, quality and precision. Lower end components will be cheaper regardless of cross compatibility with the higher end.
As Mr. peteHski points out, the high-end stuff is its own beast. There is too much money to be made there, too much "cachet" in the minds of many riders (even cyclists buy brands) to give up .... and by having tiers of higher-end stuff, they can also have pricing tiers up to the ridiculous .... "Dura-Ace---it's what the Real racers use" sort of thing.
CUES and whatever road version I am sure will come eventually, are just simplifying the lower-end and mass-sale-to-manufacturer market .... squeezing out more profit through efficiency at the price ranges where increased cost might be prohibitive.
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#190
I imagine Shimano will eventually have a wide-spread "Low-range" group for both road and off-road .... like CUES .... to simplify every aspect of the business. No more 7.8.9 .... just "Lo-Range" or whatever name they invent.
As Mr. peteHski points out, the high-end stuff is its own beast. There is too much money to be made there, too much "cachet" in the minds of many riders (even cyclists buy brands) to give up .... and by having tiers of higher-end stuff, they can also have pricing tiers up to the ridiculous .... "Dura-Ace---it's what the Real racers use" sort of thing.
CUES and whatever road version I am sure will come eventually, are just simplifying the lower-end and mass-sale-to-manufacturer market .... squeezing out more profit through efficiency at the price ranges where increased cost might be prohibitive.
As Mr. peteHski points out, the high-end stuff is its own beast. There is too much money to be made there, too much "cachet" in the minds of many riders (even cyclists buy brands) to give up .... and by having tiers of higher-end stuff, they can also have pricing tiers up to the ridiculous .... "Dura-Ace---it's what the Real racers use" sort of thing.
CUES and whatever road version I am sure will come eventually, are just simplifying the lower-end and mass-sale-to-manufacturer market .... squeezing out more profit through efficiency at the price ranges where increased cost might be prohibitive.
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#191
I’ve decided to defer the hand-wringing to a later date. I’m still running recently made friction shifters, a Suntour Cyclone RD and just nabbed a NOS Suntour Ultra 6 14-19 freewheel. So I expect we will still be able to source the much more recent but soon to be discontinued Shimano products for a number of years. And what Shimano is replacing them with seems to make some sense.
Otto
Otto
#192
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One thing from the thread: Microshift is Taiwanese; still Chinese culturally, but definitely not part of mainland China. Microshift, Sunrace and other new drivetrain alternatives are Taiwanese (democratic country/Republic of China). LTwoo and Sensah are mainland Chinese (communist country/People's Republic of China). The mainland stuff is having a moment with certain YouTubers, but the Taiwanese stuff is still much better.
That said, I think CUES looks great and I look forward to running it sometime in the coming years after my current stash of parts is depleted. I love the move to sealed bearing hubs especially and the cross compatibility of chains etc. I am sure Claris, Sora and Tiagra will follow at some stage, and the idea of common pull ratios across the board, for things like flawless road-MTB touring set ups, is awesome.
Someone pointed out the problem for shops with now obsolete inventory on their hands, but I can't see it as a huge issue. I am really interested to see what happens with 2024 bikes, due in a few months' time. I think we'll see a lot of U6000 and U4000 level stuff on MTBs and hybrids, with a bunch of U8000 stuff on European trekking bikes. Note that the Alivio-Deore-XT Shimano trekking groupsets have now gone, so there may be some long dark coffee klatsches of the soul in certain continental quarters. No more 26-36-48 XT triples, just 1x or 2x...
That said, I think CUES looks great and I look forward to running it sometime in the coming years after my current stash of parts is depleted. I love the move to sealed bearing hubs especially and the cross compatibility of chains etc. I am sure Claris, Sora and Tiagra will follow at some stage, and the idea of common pull ratios across the board, for things like flawless road-MTB touring set ups, is awesome.
Someone pointed out the problem for shops with now obsolete inventory on their hands, but I can't see it as a huge issue. I am really interested to see what happens with 2024 bikes, due in a few months' time. I think we'll see a lot of U6000 and U4000 level stuff on MTBs and hybrids, with a bunch of U8000 stuff on European trekking bikes. Note that the Alivio-Deore-XT Shimano trekking groupsets have now gone, so there may be some long dark coffee klatsches of the soul in certain continental quarters. No more 26-36-48 XT triples, just 1x or 2x...