Recommend a classic light touring rando style frame
09-05-16, 10:48 AM
#101
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Berwyn PA
Posts: 6,480
Bikes: I hate bikes!
Liked 864 Times
in
276 Posts
Well, after a week or so of more pondering, I don't know if I am any closer to a decision!!! 😊 I have some of you to thank for that!!! Now, I've been drooling on about Ellis-Briggs, Woodrups, and even Hetchins (but without the curly stays 😊
. But price is a factor in this purchase, so as much as like Ellis-Briggs and Mercian, I will likely choose between the BJ and the Holdsworth Cyclone. Between these two, the sticking points are minor but they are there.
The Cyclone has 525 tubing, which is better than 531 from what I understand, primarily because the 531 tubing was never meant to be welded. It has the same legendary ride as the 531. The downside is that it is also sold as-is in that I can't request CP posts or CP bridge if I wanted to. But it comes with lowrider points, and double eyelets front and back. Also, max tire size is 28 w/ fenders. I also happen to like the looks of the Cyclone better than the BJ, with its sweet, chrome lugs, and old style pump pegs. Another slight downside is the history of the company (as I brought up in another thread here: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...otobecane.html)
The BJ Audax has 631 which is the air hardened version of 531. It's supposedly stronger and lighter than regular 531 while maintaining its legendary ride quality. I can also get CP posts and bridge, lowrider points, and special stays added for less than $200 extra.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
Then I have to determine if the BJ, with the customization is worth the extra $$$. The Cyclone is $750, while the BJ is $960 (delivered prices).
Maybe I am closer to a decision. 😎✌️
Attached is a pic of someone's Cyclone. Love the color scheme too- it's very old school.
. But price is a factor in this purchase, so as much as like Ellis-Briggs and Mercian, I will likely choose between the BJ and the Holdsworth Cyclone. Between these two, the sticking points are minor but they are there. The Cyclone has 525 tubing, which is better than 531 from what I understand, primarily because the 531 tubing was never meant to be welded. It has the same legendary ride as the 531. The downside is that it is also sold as-is in that I can't request CP posts or CP bridge if I wanted to. But it comes with lowrider points, and double eyelets front and back. Also, max tire size is 28 w/ fenders. I also happen to like the looks of the Cyclone better than the BJ, with its sweet, chrome lugs, and old style pump pegs. Another slight downside is the history of the company (as I brought up in another thread here: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...otobecane.html)
The BJ Audax has 631 which is the air hardened version of 531. It's supposedly stronger and lighter than regular 531 while maintaining its legendary ride quality. I can also get CP posts and bridge, lowrider points, and special stays added for less than $200 extra.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
Then I have to determine if the BJ, with the customization is worth the extra $$$. The Cyclone is $750, while the BJ is $960 (delivered prices).
Maybe I am closer to a decision. 😎✌️
Attached is a pic of someone's Cyclone. Love the color scheme too- it's very old school.
the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with. Also check the top tube specs on those Holdworths and make sure it will fit. They were a little wonky if I remember correctly.
09-05-16, 10:50 AM
#102
Senior Member
I vote to get the BJ! Ahem... the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with. Also check the top tube specs on those Holdworths and make sure it will fit. They were a little wonky if I remember correctly.
the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with. Also check the top tube specs on those Holdworths and make sure it will fit. They were a little wonky if I remember correctly.That's my choice from this list as well.
09-05-16, 11:13 AM
#103
Senior Member
I vote to get the BJ! Ahem... the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with.
the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with.
09-05-16, 11:20 AM
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,520
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Liked 6,834 Times
in
3,900 Posts
09-05-16, 11:22 AM
#105
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,520
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Liked 6,834 Times
in
3,900 Posts
It will be an older frame but I would recommend a mid to late 70's Motobecane Grand Jubile or Grand Record. It would be either Vitus 172 or Reynolds 531 double butted tubing depending on the year. They can generally be had for about $200-ish for a bare frame (including headset and BB) or up to $400-500 for a full bike (all assuming very good condition). That would leave you at least half your budget for components, frame modifications, and upgrades of your choice.
A grand record.
A grand jubile.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qY4m5hgA7...0/IMG_6416.JPG
I have also seen people turn older Raleigh competitions into 650b rando bikes.
A grand record.
A grand jubile.
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qY4m5hgA7...0/IMG_6416.JPG
I have also seen people turn older Raleigh competitions into 650b rando bikes.
09-05-16, 11:25 AM
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Berwyn PA
Posts: 6,480
Bikes: I hate bikes!
Liked 864 Times
in
276 Posts
When looking at a rando bike, part of what you are trying to do is to reduce possible problems before they arise. Its not that a cage can't come loose but it is a bit less likely to be a problem on the side of the road at 2AM, 100 miles from home. A
09-05-16, 11:32 AM
#107
Senior Member
There are always ways to do such things efficiently with a bit of thought!
09-05-16, 12:31 PM
#108
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: lake Oswego, OR
Posts: 322
Bikes: Colnago Mix, Dean El Diente Ti S&S, Lynskey Cooper CX Disc Ti S&S, Mondonico Futura Legerro, DeRosa Primato, Tommaisini Tecno, Ciöcc Mokva80, Colnago Classic, Brompton M6L, Bob Jackson Audax End-E
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I vote to get the BJ! Ahem... the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with. Also check the top tube specs on those Holdworths and make sure it will fit. They were a little wonky if I remember correctly.
the cost difference is not that huge, you get everything you want and the bike will come with 2 or 3 sets of bottle mounts depending on what you spec. The Holdsworth only has one set and if you are really going to do distances on the bike, you will need the fluid. Yes you can use a camelback but that is one more thing to carry/deal with. Also check the top tube specs on those Holdworths and make sure it will fit. They were a little wonky if I remember correctly.What's the Mighty Sugino? That pic of the Motobecane Grand Record in purple and red is why I like the Holdsworth. That color combo screams old school!
09-05-16, 01:21 PM
#110
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: lake Oswego, OR
Posts: 322
Bikes: Colnago Mix, Dean El Diente Ti S&S, Lynskey Cooper CX Disc Ti S&S, Mondonico Futura Legerro, DeRosa Primato, Tommaisini Tecno, Ciöcc Mokva80, Colnago Classic, Brompton M6L, Bob Jackson Audax End-E
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
True, but I doubt I'll. ever use this as a full touring rig. Maybe a CC tourer and carry a change of clothes. Regardless, I prefer 32s for this bike, but on my CX/tourer I've done two loaded tours and I've run 30mm CX tires. What about 30s? Can't find much in 30s but something to consider for frames designed for 28s
09-05-16, 02:56 PM
#111
Senior Member
The BJ Audax has 631 which is the air hardened version of 531. It's supposedly stronger and lighter than regular 531 while maintaining its legendary ride quality. I can also get CP posts and bridge, lowrider points, and special stays added for less than $200 extra.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
Anyhow, 631 is better than 525, or at least higher up in the hierarchy according to Reynolds. The higher the number, the fancier the steel. 525 is their entry level tubing. (actually 520 is but that is 525 made under license in the far east)
531 is somewhat less susceptible to rust than 525 BTW. It's a characteristic of manganese alloy steels, including 631 and 853.
Stay tuned, I'm working on putting it together now. Still waiting for a couple parts to get here.
09-05-16, 10:08 PM
#112
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,520
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Liked 6,834 Times
in
3,900 Posts
Haha! Everyone wants BJ!
Good point, but I prefer actual bosses instead using bands around the paint. Oddly, I never noticed there was only one set of bosses in the pics. In the Specifications tab, it says there are two sets of bosses. Two sets are actually a fairly important feature for me. If the Cyclone were to have only one set of h2o bosses, I'm choosing the BJ.
What's the Mighty Sugino? That pic of the Motobecane Grand Record in purple and red is why I like the Holdsworth. That color combo screams old school!
Good point, but I prefer actual bosses instead using bands around the paint. Oddly, I never noticed there was only one set of bosses in the pics. In the Specifications tab, it says there are two sets of bosses. Two sets are actually a fairly important feature for me. If the Cyclone were to have only one set of h2o bosses, I'm choosing the BJ.
What's the Mighty Sugino? That pic of the Motobecane Grand Record in purple and red is why I like the Holdsworth. That color combo screams old school!
The crank on the Moto is a Sugino Mighty, easily as good as any other if not better and my all time favorite when it comes right down to it. Had one 30 years ago that outlived 2 or 3 bikes until it was stolen with the Super Course it was on after surviving many PDX washouts and overhauls was still going strong. Have 5 or 6 of them in stock now and may have to put them on a couple of blasphemous builds in the future just for fun.
09-05-16, 11:05 PM
#113
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: lake Oswego, OR
Posts: 322
Bikes: Colnago Mix, Dean El Diente Ti S&S, Lynskey Cooper CX Disc Ti S&S, Mondonico Futura Legerro, DeRosa Primato, Tommaisini Tecno, Ciöcc Mokva80, Colnago Classic, Brompton M6L, Bob Jackson Audax End-E
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Agreed, and tell me that crank doesn't help plenty.
The crank on the Moto is a Sugino Mighty, easily as good as any other if not better and my all time favorite when it comes right down to it. Had one 30 years ago that outlived 2 or 3 bikes until it was stolen with the Super Course it was on after surviving many PDX washouts and overhauls was still going strong. Have 5 or 6 of them in stock now and may have to put them on a couple of blasphemous builds in the future just for fun.
The crank on the Moto is a Sugino Mighty, easily as good as any other if not better and my all time favorite when it comes right down to it. Had one 30 years ago that outlived 2 or 3 bikes until it was stolen with the Super Course it was on after surviving many PDX washouts and overhauls was still going strong. Have 5 or 6 of them in stock now and may have to put them on a couple of blasphemous builds in the future just for fun.
09-05-16, 11:22 PM
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,520
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Liked 6,834 Times
in
3,900 Posts
Be aware that one has Campy rings I think. Stock Suginos looked just like Campy rings for the most part and were/are at least as tough IMHO.
Again, All Hail the Mighty Sugino Mighty!
And another one, post #47 in Show your Motobecane Grand record
Last edited by merziac; 09-06-16 at 01:31 AM.
09-06-16, 12:10 AM
#115
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,807
Bikes: It's complicated.
Liked 6,176 Times
in
2,403 Posts
It will be an older frame but I would recommend a mid to late 70's Motobecane Grand Jubile or Grand Record. It would be either Vitus 172 or Reynolds 531 double butted tubing depending on the year. They can generally be had for about $200-ish for a bare frame (including headset and BB) or up to $400-500 for a full bike (all assuming very good condition).
I have also seen people turn older Raleigh competitions into 650b rando bikes.
I have also seen people turn older Raleigh competitions into 650b rando bikes.
Yeah, that guy in Connecticut cranks out a Raleigh Competition conversion now and then...
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
09-06-16, 06:21 AM
#116
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,766
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Liked 1,791 Times
in
988 Posts
It has the same legendary ride as the 531.
It's supposedly stronger and lighter than regular 531 while maintaining its legendary ride quality.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
It's supposedly stronger and lighter than regular 531 while maintaining its legendary ride quality.
One question I need to have answered is which tube set is better- 525 or 631? Which has better ride compliance, better strength and durability (531 is more susceptible to rust. How about 525 vs 631?), etc.
I like getting into the intricacies of the little stuff, and as much as I'd argue against it- I think there's more to be said about "preference" than something being quantitatively "better."
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
09-06-16, 07:23 AM
#117
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore MD
Posts: 3,345
Bikes: '72 Motobecane Grand Record, '72 Gitane tandem, '72 Raleigh Super Course, '73 Raleigh Gran Sport, '73 Colnago Super, '76 Fiorelli Coppi, '78 Raleigh SBDU Team Pro, '78 Trek 930, '81 Holdsworth Special 650B, '86 Masi GC, ’94 Bridgestone RB-T
Liked 531 Times
in
286 Posts
I've got 4 531 framed bikes- one rides completely different than the other 3 and out of those- 2 have nearly identical geometries, but still feel different. I don't know that I'd attribute a ride quality to 531 (IME), but more of an indication of quality of materials.
I like getting into the intricacies of the little stuff, and as much as I'd argue against it- I think there's more to be said about "preference" than something being quantitatively "better."
I like getting into the intricacies of the little stuff, and as much as I'd argue against it- I think there's more to be said about "preference" than something being quantitatively "better."
__________________
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
The man who dies with the most toys…is dead. - Rootboy
09-06-16, 10:32 AM
#118
Junior Member
After having done 2 Motobecane Grand Sport rando conversions in a row (not mine), I'm on the hunt for a 60cm/24" frame. The workmanship on them is outstanding. Where are you finding frames for $200? Recently they've been harder to find.
Yeah, that guy in Connecticut cranks out a Raleigh Competition conversion now and then...
Yeah, that guy in Connecticut cranks out a Raleigh Competition conversion now and then...
Last edited by nazcalines; 09-06-16 at 10:33 AM. Reason: edit: Grand Record
09-06-16, 10:37 AM
#119
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,807
Bikes: It's complicated.
Liked 6,176 Times
in
2,403 Posts
09-06-16, 11:00 AM
#121
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,807
Bikes: It's complicated.
Liked 6,176 Times
in
2,403 Posts
Good point, but unfortunately my company blocks Craigslist...if it's still around when I get home, I might call...
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
09-06-16, 03:27 PM
#123
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 41,057
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Liked 3,057 Times
in
1,728 Posts
You need a smartphone.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
09-06-16, 03:29 PM
#124
Bike Butcher of Portland
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,807
Bikes: It's complicated.
Liked 6,176 Times
in
2,403 Posts
My company provides me with one. And they block Craigslist on it too.
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Don't tell me to get a personal one, I'm an engineer, ergo I'm a cheap bastard.
Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
Don't tell me to get a personal one, I'm an engineer, ergo I'm a cheap bastard.
__________________
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
09-30-16, 02:52 PM
#125
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: lake Oswego, OR
Posts: 322
Bikes: Colnago Mix, Dean El Diente Ti S&S, Lynskey Cooper CX Disc Ti S&S, Mondonico Futura Legerro, DeRosa Primato, Tommaisini Tecno, Ciöcc Mokva80, Colnago Classic, Brompton M6L, Bob Jackson Audax End-E
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Update:
I've decided on my audax frame- It was a tough choice- I was oscillating with each one being the leader at some point.
Initially the Holdsworth led, because I loved the look of the chrome lugs, chainstays, and fork stays, as well as the purple and red paint. Plus, it was only $750 shipped. I decided against it because of a couple of reasons, with one being on the silly side: it was made in Italy instead of England. I know, I know!!!- What's wrong with made in Italy you ask??? I want my English branded bike to be made in England, just as I've only bought Italian branded bikes made in Italy. The other reason was that it only had one set of water bottle bosses.
I was really tempted to go with the Mercian even though it was 50% more than the comparable BJ. The main reason was that I read on their site that they pin their frames before welding. Pinning lugs is a technique that very few builders use, with Richard Sachs being the most well known. Antonio Mondonico pinned when he was building- I have one of the last frames he built before retiring, and it is my favorite riding bike. What ultimately caused me cross them off was their poor communication. I asked questions about tubing and paint and never got a response- asked twice about which tubes are used for the stays and fork on a 631 KOM (wanted to confirm if the stays were downgraded to 525 or the whole frame was 631) and 3 times about trying to match their standard paints with cardinal red and zinc yellow gold (Fight On Trojans!! Even though we are in a downward spiral
) I got tired of trying to extract info from them. It almost felt like they didn't need my business. Cool, they won't get it.
BJ has been great with answering questions. They (Donald) were very accommodating with special requests (willing to use oval stays instead of the standard round-oval-round of the audax frames in order to fit 32s with fenders is just one example). Then I found a pic of an absolutely stunning BJ Audax E-E in Amber flamboyant that sealed the deal. Their paintwork is amazing. The only thing I'm still working on is trying to match their standard colors with the USC colors. Anyhow, check out this Amber baby:
I've decided on my audax frame- It was a tough choice- I was oscillating with each one being the leader at some point.
Initially the Holdsworth led, because I loved the look of the chrome lugs, chainstays, and fork stays, as well as the purple and red paint. Plus, it was only $750 shipped. I decided against it because of a couple of reasons, with one being on the silly side: it was made in Italy instead of England. I know, I know!!!- What's wrong with made in Italy you ask??? I want my English branded bike to be made in England, just as I've only bought Italian branded bikes made in Italy. The other reason was that it only had one set of water bottle bosses.
I was really tempted to go with the Mercian even though it was 50% more than the comparable BJ. The main reason was that I read on their site that they pin their frames before welding. Pinning lugs is a technique that very few builders use, with Richard Sachs being the most well known. Antonio Mondonico pinned when he was building- I have one of the last frames he built before retiring, and it is my favorite riding bike. What ultimately caused me cross them off was their poor communication. I asked questions about tubing and paint and never got a response- asked twice about which tubes are used for the stays and fork on a 631 KOM (wanted to confirm if the stays were downgraded to 525 or the whole frame was 631) and 3 times about trying to match their standard paints with cardinal red and zinc yellow gold (Fight On Trojans!! Even though we are in a downward spiral
) I got tired of trying to extract info from them. It almost felt like they didn't need my business. Cool, they won't get it. BJ has been great with answering questions. They (Donald) were very accommodating with special requests (willing to use oval stays instead of the standard round-oval-round of the audax frames in order to fit 32s with fenders is just one example). Then I found a pic of an absolutely stunning BJ Audax E-E in Amber flamboyant that sealed the deal. Their paintwork is amazing. The only thing I'm still working on is trying to match their standard colors with the USC colors. Anyhow, check out this Amber baby:
