Lugged steel frame mostly hype...or worth the upgrade?
01-06-11, 08:40 AM
#26
Senior Member
But was the issue frame material or something else?
Steel bikes have tremendous merit for many types of cycling. Is it the best material for all kinds of riding, no. Are steel bikes always junk, hardly.
See: https://www.colnago.com/bikes/2011/master-x-light
Michael
Steel bikes have tremendous merit for many types of cycling. Is it the best material for all kinds of riding, no. Are steel bikes always junk, hardly.
See: https://www.colnago.com/bikes/2011/master-x-light
Michael
I'm not sure why it is that so many will reference a very old steel bike as if it represents ALL steel bikes - both old and new - and use it as a comparison to a modern carbon/ti/aluminum bike. All the popular frame materials have evolved over the years and it's really a narrow minded way to look at it. Comparing a 20-30 year old steel bike, made from Columbus SL/SP, to a modern carbon bike is inaccurate at best. It would be like comparing a modern steel bike to a Exxon Graphtec carbon bike of the 80's. It was a carbon bike but it sucked in most every way and most any steel bike would be a step up.
I think if people compare a modern steel bike to a modern bike of any other material and they like the other material better then that has real merit.......... but one needs to compare apples to apples or the whole deal is moot.
I personally think that a great bike can be made from many different materials and it's not the material that one should focus on but it's what the designer/builder does with it.
Dave
01-06-11, 09:37 AM
#27
Senior Member
I think you make a very good point.
I'm not sure why it is that so many will reference a very old steel bike as if it represents ALL steel bikes - both old and new - and use it as a comparison to a modern carbon/ti/aluminum bike. All the popular frame materials have evolved over the years and it's really a narrow minded way to look at it. Comparing a 20-30 year old steel bike, made from Columbus SL/SP, to a modern carbon bike is inaccurate at best. It would be like comparing a modern steel bike to a Exxon Graphtec carbon bike of the 80's. It was a carbon bike but it sucked in most every way and most any steel bike would be a step up.
I think if people compare a modern steel bike to a modern bike of any other material and they like the other material better then that has real merit.......... but one needs to compare apples to apples or the whole deal is moot.
I personally think that a great bike can be made from many different materials and it's not the material that one should focus on but it's what the designer/builder does with it.
Dave
I'm not sure why it is that so many will reference a very old steel bike as if it represents ALL steel bikes - both old and new - and use it as a comparison to a modern carbon/ti/aluminum bike. All the popular frame materials have evolved over the years and it's really a narrow minded way to look at it. Comparing a 20-30 year old steel bike, made from Columbus SL/SP, to a modern carbon bike is inaccurate at best. It would be like comparing a modern steel bike to a Exxon Graphtec carbon bike of the 80's. It was a carbon bike but it sucked in most every way and most any steel bike would be a step up.
I think if people compare a modern steel bike to a modern bike of any other material and they like the other material better then that has real merit.......... but one needs to compare apples to apples or the whole deal is moot.
I personally think that a great bike can be made from many different materials and it's not the material that one should focus on but it's what the designer/builder does with it.
Dave
https://www.cyclelicio.us/2008/04/ric...le-frames.html
01-06-11, 09:45 AM
#28
Dropped
I have a 1984 531 trek 720 . Its flexy, buzzy, and generally rides like crap. I never understood all the steel love. Then I picked up a 1990 slx derosa for cheep. The ride was amazing. It was laterally stiff yet vertically compliant. It was better than sex.
Moral of the story: All steel is not created equal and steel bikes need to have italian magic applied to them to be worth a crap.
Moral of the story: All steel is not created equal and steel bikes need to have italian magic applied to them to be worth a crap.
01-06-11, 09:48 AM
#30
Dropped
OP should go for fillet brazed.
Someone in this thread brazed this:
Someone in this thread brazed this:
01-06-11, 12:15 PM
#31
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01-06-11, 12:33 PM
#32
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Dave Kirk - What steel tubing do you like for lugged racing frames ?
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01-06-11, 12:48 PM
#33
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01-06-11, 12:53 PM
#34
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01-06-11, 02:32 PM
#35
Senior Member
Thanks for the question.
The short answer is "it depends".
The longer is that I use mostly Reynolds brand tubes. I build bikes at two price points. The lower price point uses mostly Reynolds 725. I like 725 because there is a very good selection of diameters and wall thicknesses so I can meet the needs of most riders with it. For the upper price point (the JK Series) I use a mix of Reynolds 953, True Temper S3 and special 631 chain and set stays made for me by Reynolds. The JK Series ends up being a good bit lighter, has a stiffer drivetrain, and a slightly smoother ride than the 725 bikes.
Is that what you were looking for?
Dave
01-06-11, 02:39 PM
#36
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Hey,
Thanks for the question.
The short answer is "it depends".
The longer is that I use mostly Reynolds brand tubes. I build bikes at two price points. The lower price point uses mostly Reynolds 725. I like 725 because there is a very good selection of diameters and wall thicknesses so I can meet the needs of most riders with it. For the upper price point (the JK Series) I use a mix of Reynolds 953, True Temper S3 and special 631 chain and set stays made for me by Reynolds. The JK Series ends up being a good bit lighter, has a stiffer drivetrain, and a slightly smoother ride than the 725 bikes.
Is that what you were looking for?
Dave
Thanks for the question.
The short answer is "it depends".
The longer is that I use mostly Reynolds brand tubes. I build bikes at two price points. The lower price point uses mostly Reynolds 725. I like 725 because there is a very good selection of diameters and wall thicknesses so I can meet the needs of most riders with it. For the upper price point (the JK Series) I use a mix of Reynolds 953, True Temper S3 and special 631 chain and set stays made for me by Reynolds. The JK Series ends up being a good bit lighter, has a stiffer drivetrain, and a slightly smoother ride than the 725 bikes.
Is that what you were looking for?
Dave
I just looked up a bit about 953. It's stainless ? Can it be silver brazed in lugs ?
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Last edited by Homebrew01; 01-06-11 at 02:47 PM.
01-06-11, 03:13 PM
#37
Senior Member
01-06-11, 03:29 PM
#38
That bike of Scooper's is beautiful. The lugs are Newvex (Richard Sachs), they look like the old Nervex Professional lugs. Scooper's 953 bike is polished 953 (stainless steel), looks like chrome. Here's the same area on my chrome '71 Schwinn Paramount with Nervex Professional lugs:
Front view of headtube on Paramount:
01-06-11, 03:59 PM
#40
I have a custom lugged bike, love it.
The guy who built it for me, who is far closer to the retro-grouch end of the scale, his current bike is fillet brazed.
Buy the one you think is coolest / prettiest / meets your dream vision.
FWIW, 2 cents etc.
The guy who built it for me, who is far closer to the retro-grouch end of the scale, his current bike is fillet brazed.
Buy the one you think is coolest / prettiest / meets your dream vision.
FWIW, 2 cents etc.
01-06-11, 04:08 PM
#41
Look beyond the Vanilla's, Pegoretti's and other boutique names.
There are tons of custom builders out there that can build a frame
for much less.
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01-06-11, 06:09 PM
#42
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I've owned lightweight lugged steel frames since 1974. I've tried aluminum and carbon fiber bikes, but wasn't overly impressed with the ride quality. The aluminum frames either felt like spaghetti (glued small-diameter tubing) or were harsh and unforgiving (Klein and early Cannondale). The carbon fiber bikes I've tried feel strangely "disconnected" from the road. I haven't ridden a TIG-welded steel frame. I've yet to ride any bike that matches the overall responsiveness/ride quality of my Ciocc.
01-06-11, 06:33 PM
#43
01-06-11, 07:25 PM
#44
Senior Member
Hey,
Yes.... 953 is stainless and can be either silver brazed into lugs or it can be tig welded. Frankly I don't use it because it's stainless but instead I use it because it's so strong that it can be made very thin and thus very light. The fact that it's stainless is gravy to me.
It's a good material. I'm not 100% behind all the tubes they make with it and in particular chain and seat stays. I find the 953 chainstays to be too flexible for my tastes and the seat stays heavier than they need to be so I mix and match tubes to get the desired ride quality and behavior.
The comment made by someone in this thread stating "steel = hype" is pretty damn funny. I needed a good laugh today and this provided it. Thanks for that.
Dave
01-06-11, 07:35 PM
#45
Decrepit Member
Here's a recent silver brazed lugged polished 953 bike by Dave Wages.
01-06-11, 10:22 PM
#46
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Hey,
Thanks for the question.
The short answer is "it depends".
The longer is that I use mostly Reynolds brand tubes. I build bikes at two price points. The lower price point uses mostly Reynolds 725. I like 725 because there is a very good selection of diameters and wall thicknesses so I can meet the needs of most riders with it. For the upper price point (the JK Series) I use a mix of Reynolds 953, True Temper S3 and special 631 chain and set stays made for me by Reynolds. The JK Series ends up being a good bit lighter, has a stiffer drivetrain, and a slightly smoother ride than the 725 bikes.
Is that what you were looking for?
Dave
Thanks for the question.
The short answer is "it depends".
The longer is that I use mostly Reynolds brand tubes. I build bikes at two price points. The lower price point uses mostly Reynolds 725. I like 725 because there is a very good selection of diameters and wall thicknesses so I can meet the needs of most riders with it. For the upper price point (the JK Series) I use a mix of Reynolds 953, True Temper S3 and special 631 chain and set stays made for me by Reynolds. The JK Series ends up being a good bit lighter, has a stiffer drivetrain, and a slightly smoother ride than the 725 bikes.
Is that what you were looking for?
Dave
Dave, I am curious about tubing supplier reputations amongst frame builders. Who has the best out of the box tubes? Do you notice certain tube sets last longer than others?
01-07-11, 05:39 AM
#47
Senior Member
01-07-11, 05:56 AM
#49
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Yes and yes! 953 is an incredible material.
Here's a recent silver brazed lugged polished 953 bike by Dave Wages.
Here's a recent silver brazed lugged polished 953 bike by Dave Wages.
01-07-11, 08:04 AM
#50
Aluminium Crusader :-)
Yeah, $3250 is obviously a lot for a frame. Assuming you can ride off-the-shelf geometry, Gios, and other companies make steel frames that I'm pretty sure are much cheaper.
