Hi was wondering what everyones opinion is of Japanese steel bikes? *80's and on. What company do you like? what frame type /model? and steels? Any opinions would be valued. And please be brutally honest.

Thanks

My comment by way of extrapolation. I ride a 70's Fuji "The Finest" with a double-butted Chrome Moly frame. The frame is both forgiving and lively. I would think that the Fuji steel frames moving into the 80's would be the equivalent, if not an improvement upon mine (at least the frames on their better bikes).

I'll have to let others give you their opinions on other manufacturers. I've never ridden any others.

The tubing quality seems as good as the British, Italian, or French steels. Construction quality of production frames varies from builder to builder though.

For the really nice, "world class" Japanese frames, look at Toei, 3Rensho, Nagasawa, Zunow... I'm sure there are plenty more. They're built at least as well as any of the best around, but were sold as high-end frames (I think Toei is/was custom only; not sure). I recently sold a Panasonic "Team America Custom", built of Tange Prestige... It was very nicely made, but still a production frame (not really a custom). I also recently sold a Miyata Team Pro, and it too, was nicely built.

Many folks assume that the weight of a set of tubes is related to its quality. Not so. The Japanese tube makers, including Tange, made tubes in a variety of designs and weights. That enabled designers to select exactly the tubes needed for a particular bike.

Back in the '70's, Schwinn used Reynolds 531 as its "standard" tube for Paramounts. But, Schwinn also was using Japanese tubes for custom orders, due to the availability of some unique tube sets, including some very light tubes designed for "record attempt" bikes.

Most of the Japanese bikes I've ridden have been Shimano 600 level bikes...in the same price range as Treks from the 80's that used Reynolds 531 or True Temper tubes. These bikes (such as a Centurion Dave Scott and a Schwinn Super Sport) have frame weights and geometry that is similar to my bikes with British and American tubing. And, with identical wheels and identical tires, the bikes with Japanese frames feel pretty much like my Treks.

All of my 80's steel bikes do an equally nice job of soaking up the vibrations of asphalt and rough pavement, and have a resiliant feel on rolling and bouncing surfaces. They feel exactly as a good steel frames and forks ought to feel.

By 1989, the Japanese had mastered the "art" of making lugged steel frames that retailed at very reasonably prices, yet matched the exceptional ride quality of the best Pro bikes of the 1960's and 1970's.

Ironically, just when the Japanese made top quality steel frames affordable, aluminum frames became popular. Today, most lugged steel frame bikes are "custom-made", and are once again priced above the reach of most cyclists.

3Rensho
Nasagawa
Toei

any order

Be seeing you

I bought a Sanwa last year and was really impressed with it. It had all shimano componets and rode really sweet. I needed a bike for my daughter and transplanted its parts to a Motobecane Mirage that fit her. I have the frame in my shop. It weighs in at less then five pounds. I liked riding the bike so much that I will revive it when I come across the parts. When my daughter gets a new bike I will probably parts out the Moto and bring the Sanwa back to life. I was tempted to try and turn it into an eight speed. I may still do that if I run across the right donor bike. Anyway, I like this japanese bike and would buy another if I found one.

Jim

The whole range from bottom of the barrel gas pipe to vey good stuff is included in your global question.

ONE OF THE BETTER OPINIONS OF 70 & 80'S BIKES IN GENERAL WITH THE EDGE GOING TO THE
JAPANESE.

So, if I can get my hands on a 1988 or 1989 Bridgestone or Panasonic, I should buy it?

depends on the asking price and your goals. If you want a collector bike, the Bridgestone has the edge, and is probably a very good bike, although like other manufacturers, they covered a wide price range (Panasonic too) and so you can get burned if you go in thinking that all Bridgestones are collectors' items. If you want a good rider, either choice will be very good. The fundamental advantage is that Japanese bikes from the '80s' are very well made and not so desireable, so you should be able to get a good one cheap. And I'm not so sure that they won't appreciate in value someday as well, so you probably shouldn't beat it to death.

ok Fuji is the king of Japanese Bikes. Now Centurions are ok. But what about Shogun. It is a good bike for the $. Also I gotta give Peugeot and the PX10 some props!

I think Miyata's are better than Fuji's....

I have a Shogun in the garage right now - it is a solid well made bike, but the tubes are gas pipe.

John D.

Panasonic made good stuff,and bottom of the barrel junk as did many other makers.

they all made bottom of the barrel junk.

And they all made decent stuff too... You need to learn about what you're looking at, and the subtle differences in build quality. To some people a Herse looks the same as Centurion... They both have drop handlebars; right? Heck, the Centurion will probably have fancier looking paint, and real decals.

Anyone know where Suteki fell in the general hierarchy of Japanese lugged steel frames? I have one, purchased at Sears, late 80s. Seems nicely made, all Shimano 600 stuff on it, Panaracer tires, saddle was absolute junk.

3 Renso hands down. How can you compare a custom job to Panasonics and centurion? Unless it ia a custom bike like the ones ridden by the Dutch teams. Many of then were rebadged custom frames.

jeff

Miyata used triple-butted tubing on production frames as far back as the mid '80s. I can't compare it to any other Japanese steel, but it feels like good stuff. But keep in mind, most Japanese bicycle producers, including the ones with a reputation for high-quality (Fuji, Nishiwata, Miyata, etc etc) produced a range of products. Frame and tube quality is generally directly correlated with the pricing of the bike. A Japanese bike that sold for $75 in 1985 was generally a solidly-built gaspipe frame. A Japanese frame that sold for $1,000 in 1985 was generally a solidly-built frame made from high-quality, lightweight tubing.

There is no doubt that from the mid or late '70s on, that the high-quality Japanese steel was at the same level of quality as Reynolds 531 or any other high-end Western tubing from the period that you care to name.

You have to find out what frame a particualar model had. As others have said they ran the range from junk to superb. In the 80's Panasonic, Fuji and others made a lot of low end bikes but some had one high end bike that used Ishiwata 021 tubing that more then rivaled anything Europe had out. Personally I thought Ishiwata 021 tubing was stronger and stiffer and just as light then anything Columbus had and it rivaled Reynolds 531c or 531Pro which both had rider weight limits of 150 pounds whereas the 021 did not. Then there was Ishiwata 022 that again was just as light but actually stiffer then Reynolds 531cs (this series was a step below 531c/pro and did not have a rider weight limit.). But if you can find an older Japanese bike using the Ishiwata 021 you got a rare bird. The Japanese skilled hand detail was very high and again would rival anything Europe could do. Unfortunately unless you find a custom Japanese bike like 3Renso the value is not high; but Bridgestone made the RB1 and the Panasonic racing bike are in fairly high demand-if they can be found. Also in order to keep with traditional Japanese quality and rareness you would want to find a bike that still had the original Japanese components on it as well and has not been basterized over the years.

Jeff, I don't think that anyone who knows the second thing about Japanese bikes would dispute that 3Rensho makes outstanding custom frames (as do Toie and Nagasawa). The original question was not "what is the best?", but "what is your opinion?" I feel it is valid to say that, even though they were "production" bikes, several of the Japanese bicycle companies made some excellent steel frames. Comparing to their European counterparts, the Japanese were right there with them.

Z

Production Japanese bikes generally suffered from design mediocrity and or size problems. I can't speak of the Fuji brand as they rarely made it to the left coast, the shipping was too much of a burden to the slim profit margins that bike shops still endure. Top tubes were too long for the small frames, too short for the largest, BB heights too high, generally sized only as 19", 21", 23", 25". For fitting that missed a lot of folk.
For most European frames kickstands were cut to 265mm, for most Japanese bikes 285 or 290mm. The tubing and metalwork was there, just the geometry was not on a par with the European offerings, but they all shifted better until Japanese parts got spec'd on the European brands.

Be seeing you

I have a Gan Well Pro (track). I like the feel. I ride nothing but steel. I cannot compare to any other frame materials, nor do I wish to do so.
The Gan Well is Kaisei tubing and rides very well. A true steel sensitivity without a huge amount of flex. The frame is good so far going into the banks at speed, as I would expect.

where do you folks place nishiki in the lineup, generally speaking?

I've owned a miyata and a fuji and I defintely felt the Miyata was superior in quality. Not talking models now, just overall attn to detail, ride, etc.

Also, in buying one of these old bikes, assuming you want some peformance out of a frame (lively ride, etc) would you absolutely stay away from a model named "Sport" something or other? I know sport was more or less the 1980s equivalent in road bike catalogs for 'tourist' in the 70s and 'comfort' in the 90s......ie, lame. pls correct me if i b wrong

Good stuff to junk.Want to generalize some more?

A good clue to the overall "quality" of any Japanese steel bike of the 1987 to 1989 period is the "group" used. In 1987, Shimano released the "Shimano 105" group with improved indexed shifting and the spectacular SLR brakes (NOT available on 1987 Dura-Ace). So, I'd buy ANY bike with Tange or Isiwata tubing that had the 105 group from 1987, 1988, or 1989. The Dura-Ace and Ultegra 600 groups for 1987 and 1988 were very nice, but lacked the SLR brakes. In 1989, those groups were "upgraded" to match 105. Then STI came along, and shifting and braking quality took a major hit.

I've loaned several friends one of my late '80's bikes with Japanese tubes and SLR braking. They are usually rather surprised. The braking and shifting have superior feel and precision when compared with the components on $1,000 bikes made in 2005. The ride quality and handling are generally superior to any production bikes of 2005, matched only by custom steel frames, from companies such as Rivendell.

So, a 1987 Centurion, or Panasonic, or Bridgestone with Shimano 105 can give you as good or better a riding experience than most of the bikes up at your corner LBS...but for $200 or so, not $1,000 or $2,000.