ghettocruiser

I agree that with a second set of brake levers on the tops the bars would be no different that a flat bar for descending, although I would want a pretty wide drop bar for this.

But I have never actually seen anyone using bar-top brake levers in a race around here. The CX guys usually just get off and run the muddy descents, or sketchily descend on the hoods with their weight forward. Again, they are probably trying to save weight like everybody else, and an extra set of brake levers, cables, and splitters on top of STI road levers is more, not less.

Still, the dual-brake lever idea is interesting enough that I might check it out next time I am at a shop that has CX stuff.

kandnhome

No, I think top XC racers are huge weight weenies, and the 1/2lb or so from the extra bar material + extra set of brake levers means they'll do without the drop bar, even though it has more positions just for that weight advantage. Life is about trade-offs, and racing is a particularly intense form of life. If flat bars are so much better for off road, why don't 99% of cyclocrossers ride them? Because that's not what a cyclocross bike is "supposed" to look like. Same with XC mountain bikes.

I mean, seriously: the bars are in the same place; one is a different shape. How can there be that much difference? I'm seriously interested, because I might be wrong (it happens). I think the people in favor of the equality or superiority of drop bars have presented some well-reasoned thoughts and advantages. The flat-bar types have just said "come on, don't be dumb" in more or less those words. Prove me wrong. Use some logic, some evidence, or something besides inference and "common sense".

khuon

Nothing wrong with old-style cantilevers. They offer better modulation than most V-brakes.

Maelstrom 

Man I didn't mean to open up a can of worms, sheesh. Just thought the pic was cool for old school. I love it because to me, it shows where xc racing should be.

ZenNMotion

You're in the wrong forum. Go over to the cyclocross forum and ask the same question. If the course is fast and not too technical, you got the fastest thing out there. But converting a MTB to drop bars has some issues- your brakes and shifters. Road bike brake levers wont work on Vbrakes without an adapter- you need to switch to retro cantilever brakes (which work fine by the way....) Most people don't think the adapters are worth it, at 20 bucks per wheel for a slight mechanical advantage over canti brakes. Obviously you need to jury-rig some kind of adaption like thumb shifters, grip shift (which are made for drop bars, but obscure) or bar end shifters, or STI. A change in style like this ends up being an expensive proposition in the end. But its all good- I use my cyclocross bike for everything but super technical singletrack, big rocks and hucking. I prefer speed (up AND downhill...) to air-

ZenNMotion

Trust me, few experienced cross riders run down anything unless you're really talking about joyriding in the woods with dropoffs and stuff. I have one crosser with top levers, one without. Nice to have, but I don't miss it much on the one that doesnt. And my bike is set up so that I can (and do) touch my butt to my back wheel going downhill fast, and I can climb in the drops. The weight of the top-levers is a non-issue, and setup is very easy. You do want some wider bars, 44cm at least though.

Maelstrom 

Whats the widest drop bars? I know 44cm is almost 8in to narrow for anything I currently run on any of my bikes.

ghettocruiser

We were in the woods, but there was no joy involved. These guys are pretty fast, elite class, but the races in question are free-for-all affairs, so I guess these frequent dismountees could have been roadies who ride their cross bikes twice a year or so. And the race is more difficult, I suspect, than the average cross course; I ran down some descents, and I had my MTB. No pride here, whatever is faster.

When you say you can scoot back behind the saddle, are your hands on the tops or the drops? I'm setting up a CX bike for a road-riding family member who intends to race it, and we are trying to determine the best position for the bars and seat.

Edit: maybe this should go in the CX forum, I'm way off the original topic. Mael, I was just thinking that the freeride types are going to be looking at this and wondering what we are talking about; my DH bike handlebars, which I cut down quite a bit, are vastly wider than the road or CX bars I ride with.

serious

Actually, I would be in favor of drop bars for a more "mild" and fast off-road course, as most cyclocross courses are. But the XC trails I ride are not that forgiving. The control advantage of a straight bar should be obvious where handling becomes critical (wider bars allow better control, it is that simple). The aerodynamic advantage of a drop bar is a non-issue in mtb courses. And generally, if suspension is a must (i.e. terrain is very rough), a wider, straight bar puts you in a much better position to absorb the shock (3-4 inches of travel can only go so far), than a narrow drop bar ever could. Handling a bike for several hours in rough terrain can be a real workout for your arms and shoulders and a drop bar would be a disadvantage.

I am not sure what else to say. To me the "evidence" is in what people ride out there. If drop bars were so appropriate, they would be widely accepted. Most of us would care less about what is cool.

jhota

you can get a 48cm Nitto Noodle from Rivendell.

i don't use drop bars - i've got an ancient Scott AT-4. it's 56cm wide, and has lots of hand positions too. plus, it's lighter than a standard aluminum bar with bar ends.

and i think i had those same day-glo bottles back in the day...

kandnhome

I'll concede that the width of the bars can give stability (aka control) in very rough situations, and that width might preserve some strength, etc. And flat bars are as much as 66cm wide, or even more, considerably wider than even the widest drop bars. But that's just one advantage (albeit a significant one in some scenarios). I still don't see why, although not the best in all applications, drop bars aren't the best (or at least a good) choice in many, many other applications. Especially for your average commuter/light trail/moderate singletrack rider.

Guess it's just a matter of taste, except for the areas at the ends of the spectrum.

BTW: love those Noodles.

Maelstrom 

My min is 66cm. Thats on my xc bike. Likely the size of my back/chest but anything smaller is too noodly and I can't breathe.

kandnhome

66cm is pretty darn big, for a back/chest. I'm no small guy (6'2"/1.88m 225 lbs/102 kilos, not completely soft, but i have a belly) and my shoulder bones (from the back, the pointy parts right above the socket) are right at 46cm. If you go the outsides of my shoulders, that adds another 5 or so cm on either side, making me ~56cm across. An extra 10 cm (4 in for us bass ackwards Americans) would make you a barrel-chested SOB. I can see why you'd like your bars wide, and drop bars that big would look ridiculous.

Maelstrom 

Nope...my chest is a 48 and my shoulders peak to peak are 23" give or take. I just can't stand how twitchy bars feel under 25". Maybe its because I also tend to run long travel forks and ride the front of my bike for really aggressive turning. (I dh and even when I xc I ride in that agressive manner) I find the bike signifigantly easier to maneuver with longer bars.

seely

Ever feel like you're talking to people that have their fingers in their ears?

seely

I don't think anyone is arguing that drop bars are superior to a flat bar. Just that THEY DO WORK just fine for 99% of XC riding. Flat bars are virtually non-existant these days, but I don't see anyone going nuts as soon as someone asks about swapping a flat bar onto their bike. If it worked 10 years ago, it will still work as good today as it did 10 years ago. It may not perform as well as more modern equipment, but it WILL work just as well as it used to. I ran a NORBA course with drop bars, a rigid fork, one gear and cantilevers, and lived to tell about it.

seely

Thought I'd bring this pic up to show that amazingly my bike didn't spontaneously light on fire or explode upon its first trail run with drops.

Maelstrom 

Aren't those moustache bars?...

jeff williams

Thanks, ..on your xc bike, is the saddle higher than the bars?

jeff williams

Yea.

seely

They are a variant of Dirt Drops. I also ran that bike with a normal road bar until I got a deal on those.

The_Convert

No, but my nuts did after looking at your seat.

seely

I knew someone would comment on that. That was the night I put it back together with the new bars, cut me some slack.

Sidenote: I'm actually resurrecting project "ugly ass bike" as a 26" wheeled cyclocross/commuter, unless I can find the proper brakes at a decent price to run 700c's (anyone got some Paul's Motolites or Avid Tri aligns laying around?) Expect to see pics by mid summer, complete with dirt drop style bars again

kandnhome

I don't have an XC bike at the moment (will within the month -- saving $$$) but I've ridden quite a few, and I don't know how my saddle would be anything but higher than my bars, unless I got the world's biggest riser stem/riser bar combo. Or maybe some ape hangers. 36" biking inseam = high seat, even on a mountain bike. My seat on my roadie is about 4" higher than the bars. I'm betting my seat on my XC bike will be a bit closer to bar-level, due to the frame geometry and the need to keep from crushing my balls, but still at least 2-3" higher than the bars. Plus i have bad knees (too much football, and BMX wipeouts) so I can't run my saddle too low without serious pain.

khuon

Try directly from the manufacturer.

https://www.endless-innovations.com/m...tegory=BarEnds