Maelochs

When a real cyclist is bombing along an MUP at a high rate of speed, s/he might have all the fitness that years of cycling has brought him/her, but none of the courtesy and social awareness years of Life should have brought.

Again, e-bikes don't kill. idiots on e-bikes kill, And idiots on pedal bikes kill too.

In fact, the first fear the OP mentions is "Lance Armstrong types" ... e-bikers is down the list.

AirPhantomPhoto

OMG, is there a way to block folks on here?

Vegan, I'd take those words about needing pro help as an attack & they arent even directed at me.
IMHO the whole discussion about what is & isnt considered an e-bike is a dead horse by now, plus its not even in the thread of this topic. I'd say that we all know your feelings about the definitations by this point so just stop, please just stop.

AirPhantomPhoto

Scared_Cyclist,
You obviously are not even reading the posts up to your 3 spam posts for access, and again obviously you didnt read the forums/bbs rules either or you wouldnt be spamming like this. But I digress, you've been given suggestions as to how to get over this fear, and you really are feeding into your own fear too.

If you cant deal with the remote possibilities of a very random chance of getting hurt then maybe just maybe biking isnt for you. I was hit by a towncar walking on the side of a split roadway when I was 24-25 years old back in the early 90s (broke my domant wrist & same side lower leg), knocked off a bike when I was 16 in the early 80s (no serious injuries I was aware of), but that hasnt stopped me from walking on the side of roads & biking before I took a massive break for other reasons.

I'm getting back into it myself & will have to ride semi-rural roads to even get to a MUP or use my truck to get there, recent wrist surgery has stopped me from biking for the moment.

In the end you & only you can decide if bycling is something you can comfortably do or not. I wish you luck but also please stop spamming the forum like that. Thank you

scott967

OK, then let's look at mobility devices with 750 Watt motor and theoretical 20 mph loaded speed. Call them whatever you like. The reality here (don't know about your area) is that kids on these things are much more a problem in any location, than the lycra-clad "Lance Armstrong" type. They're illegal on sidewalks here but a 12 year old (by law must be 15 to operate) took out another kid on the sidewalk by a middle school. Principal has now made possession on school grounds an infraction. I see them going up hill, pulling a wheelie for a block in my area.

scott s.
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indyfabz

I hadn’t seen the “I’m scared” schtick in many years. A previous member pulled it a few times.

veganbikes

So beyond bringing up "L.A." for zero reason then to generate controversy, and mentioning kids being problems what's the problem? Someone doing illegal things is always problematic especially when someone else gets hurt but that is not relevant to bikes that is humans not following the law and adults not teaching their kids how to behave and kids also being kids.

We have wheelie kids in our area on regular bikes causing mayhem however them being on bikes is irrelevant they don't care about other people or the law and they really don't care about themselves either as they have bikes that need work and don't wear helmets. It wouldn't be fair to the thousands of other cyclists who aren't doing what they do and just riding bikes.

People drive illegally and crash cars but we don't generally say well all cars are bad or something like that. Blame the people who do the illegal acts and also blame those who aren't trying to stop these illegal acts and also I would blame the people raising them or not raising them and teaching them to do the right thing.

SoSmellyAir

I think most of us can comprehend the US e-bike classifications and the differences between Classes 1, 2, and 3 e-bikes. But that is not the issue here. The issue is the proliferation of (what you call) e-mopeds and the manner in which they are operated by so many. Although they are not technically e-bikes as defined within those classifications, they have two wheels and (vestigial) pedals, and people are going to colloquially refer to them as "e-bikes", notwithstanding your objections. It also seems that you recognize the issue when people voice concerns about "e-bikes" flying by at high speeds without pedaling by their riders.

veganbikes

That is the problem there are people that cannot do that and are conflating actual e-bikes which require you to pedal with the e-mopeds with throttles and the problem with that is in general most cyclists dislike the throttled vehicles but they throw hate on e-bikes in a general sense because of those and in the end it hurts all cyclists.

I recognize that throttled vehicles as we are discussing do not belong on pedestrian paths or places for bicycles they belong with other throttled vehicles like cars and motorcycles. I also recognize the people who own and use these vehicles can be the problem rather than purely the vehicles themselves (though not standing up for the vehicles). In fact it is people doing anything that can be problematic or not, it is a choice they make and instead of saying well it is this or that, we need to hold the people who are doing wrong accountable. Does an e-moped or scooter make their wrongdoing easier sure but they can still go fast and ride recklessly on a normal bike and truthfully I have seen more people on just regular bikes with no motor of any sort causing issues at least near me. Sometimes it is not the people aboard the bike it is the adults not paying attention or teaching their kids about riding in the lines and stuff like that.

Smaug1

Yes, it's tough and it seems like you have three choices:

• Don't take the MUP; take the sidewalks instead. Having spent a few days in Toronto, that is not a good option as there are a lot of pedestrians.
• Don't take the MUP; take the streets; instead. You exchange one set of risks for another.
• Don't take a bike, take some other mode of transportation.

You might also write to the mayor's office and request some law enforcement on the MUPs. Or upgrading of the MUPs to have separate lanes for faster moving traffic like scooters and bikes. I've seen pix of this in Europe. (Holland?) I seem to recall that you have it in certain areas of Toronto too, near the CN Tower and along the lakefront downtown? It seems to work great there, but there, people on bikes outnumber motorists and pedestrians probably 10:1. That's a whole different culture.

The good news is that Canada is more progressive than the USA and you're likely to see those infrastructure improvements before we do down south.

You might consider getting involved in the cause for better bike infrastructure. Your fellow countryman in Calgary has a YouTube channel (Shifter) dedicated to this. I bet he can get you on the right track.

For my part, I joined my local bike club and the officers know I'm a year-round bike commuter. They put me in touch with Wisconsin Bike Fed and I volunteered to help college students do a project on this very topic. They will provide a report of their findings to our politicians.

I found this pic of a Toronto MUP in a Google image search. We can see that the bike lanes, with the blue center line are intended to be separate from the pedestrian walking area.


Pedestrians belong further to the left on the paving stones. It seems pretty obvious that cycles belong on the right part, with blue center lines. But even with the right infrastructure, that dumb woman wants to walk on the bike side... <sigh>

scared_cyclist

Hello everyone, I was finally able to post my video links since I surpassed 10 messages.

Please have a look at my first original message to see the links.

Thank you for all your thoughtful replies.

Eric F 

I'm going to echo what has already been said multiple times...If your fear of these types of incidents happening to you makes you a nervous rider, maybe cycling isn't for you.

The video does not change anything for me.

3alarmer

.
...as another FWIW, two days ago, on my usual ride on the American River MUP here, I was surprised to see another cyclist coming at me kind of following the center line (between the lanes). As we got closer, I realized it was someone on a throttle controlled e-bike, traveling at about 18mph, with his feet up on the bar, trying to learn how to steer with his feet (I think...who knows really ?) He had hands on the bar as well, but was struggling mightily to steer that thing.

I pulled as far over to the right as I could, and we passed uneventfully. But yes, I agree that MUP's are every bit as dangerous as the in town roadways that I ride. There's a great deal of idiocy cruising around on wheels, it's not going slowly, and you really can get hurt on a bicycle. Still, we persist, because there's some value in the exercise. I don't know if there's a safer way for you to get to work. Mass transit, maybe ? The dangers are real enough, but there's a certain amount of fatalism involved in just leaving the house.

In retrospect, I guess my smart play would have been to pull off the trail, stopped, and let him go past. I think I was momentarily paralyzed by the stupidity.

3alarmer

.DUI driver who killed 76-year-old cyclist on American River bike path is convicted

...another tale of the unexpected. I was on the AR trail, when this guy pulled his car around the feeble barrier to vehicular traffic (a single post in the center, and a sign). I was probably the first person to encounter him, but I had a heads up because I was slowing down for the road crossing he turned from. Had to leave the trail for that one, but managed to stay upright and stop. He continued on up the trail, and somewhere along the way he hit a group of cyclists, and killed one of them. For them, I guess he had picked up speed, and they had less warning.

He was convicted of 2nd degree murder, but that's small comfort if you're dead.

So that's statistically improbable, as something that will happen to you. But I was close enough in that instance to witness a portion of the event. (also statistically improbable)

Of course, drunk drivers kill people in cars all the time, too. It's not limited to bike trails.

3alarmer

LarrySellerz

In the crash at 8:55 you told us to watch neither party was looking. Just pay attention and you’ll be fine.

ofajen

I’ve ridden close to 2,000 hours on our trails without any collisions. Occasionally an oncoming cyclist makes a mistake and passes a pedestrian when they should have waited and would be close to colliding with me on my side if I weren’t paying attention. Just slow down and let them through. Also watch blind corners in case they are careless enough to come around two abreast. A bit of care and grace goes a long way.

Otto

scared_cyclist

Thank you for the helpful advice Otto. But are you encoutering all these e-vehicles rippling along the trail as well?

If yes, how do you react?

rob214

once I was old enough my mom told me to go play in traffic and here I am 55 years later still doing it

Maelochs

@scared_cyclist ---- When @LarrySellerz is schooling you, you have dipped below rock bottom.

Get out from behind your screen and go ride your bike. it can't get any worse than this so there is no risk.

Camilo

I don't disagree with your terms (pedal-assist w/o throttle = ebike; bike with throttle = e-moped). However, where I live and I think almost everwhere, the ebikes and emopeds that look alike (i.e. an emoped with pedals and a throttle) are lumped together in many regulations and also if they are differentiated, are not enforced as such. EMopeds are a menace, imho, but unfortunately are something that will continue to be a problem.

It's easy enough to recognize the ones that have huge tires and a frame that has little in common with a bicycle. It is impossible without inspection to recognize the ones that actually look like an ebike but have a little discrete throttle. Neither is effectively regulated as a motorcycle,

Maelochs

A note, repeated---it is not the conveyance but the conductor.
You can call it a flying elephant if you like ... if the user is a selfish dolt or a childish idiot or something similar .....

I met a guy who rides a Dutch-style cargo bike, the kind with a big box ahead of the rider and a 20-inch wheel way up front. he had a throttle-controlled electric assist ... I doubt he was offending many people on the MUPs.

scared_cyclist

So you people see no risk in riding on a multi-use trail that has activity like this?

https://www.youtube.com/@IdiotsOnTheBikePathInEtobicoke/short

slow rollin

I don't encounter bike trails that narrow, with no dividing line. I also don't encounter speeding gas mopeds. If I did encounter this frequently I would just take a different route, it's generally the easiest solution and safest. If there is no bike trail sidewalks are my go to since I spot 1 human ever 5miles using them. I just get off, walk past, and keep riding.
Over here there are a bajillion more cars going 50+mph that worry me.

70sSanO

Since you state you don’t need to cycle to work, I’m guessing you are getting to work now; TTC?

You have months before winter sets in. I imagined there is a snow and ice MUP YouTube out there you can post.

You’ll figure it out.

John

Clyde1820

Of course.

Then again, every route has its risks.

Idiot anti-social people exist all over society. And occasionally such a person will flatly disregard all sensibilities and laws to deliberately create threats to others. (Wandon disregard, reckless disregard, etc.) Won't ever change that, short of removal of such people from society.

That said, there are certainly steps a person can take. (See above, earlier remarks by many.) Dislike the odds, on a given route? Select a different one. Continually getting threatened by such behaviors? Enlist the help of police, newsies (for documenting such threats and publicizing any do-nothing approach by "the authorities" when clear threats exists along such routes.