RoadWearier

I was all set to order a Zizzo Liberte but then, of course, I see this to confuse things more. The more I think about what I "Need", the more I'm thinking this might make sense. From reading on here, these might be faster and more fun. Less of a "last miler" bike and more of a bike I can pack and leave in my car. As stated earlier, I mostly want a folder so I can ride on my frequent work trips. I get there mostly by car. Won't have to carry it around. And as an added bonus these I guess can be flown in a regular sized suitcase.

Anyone own this model and know the pros and cons? These are Brompton expensive but seem more performance oriented.

The seller agrees to $550. Is this a good deal? How adjustable are they for fit?



https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/360847257101756/?mibextid=dXMIcH

RCMoeur 

First things first: I don't own a Pocket Rocket, but I really like my first-generation Bike Friday New World Tourist.

Bike Friday makes no secret that their folding design is optimized for riding performance while packing into a standard suitcase, whereas Bromptons and other bicycles designed for cultists urban cycling are optimized for fast folding. A Friday should fit easily in a trunk or back seat, although it'll be a little floppier than other folders. While riding, they seem to have the same performance as a comparable bike with similar weight and components - the frame feel isn't twisty or noodly, as some other folders can be prone to. And high-performance 20" ISO 406 tires still seem to be available.

The bike in the photo looks to be first-generation like my NWT, with a separate 'top' and 'down' tube instead of the single big oval tube used in later models. So it's probably from the early 1990s, as the XCE drivetrain seems to confirm (which was high-level stuff when that bike was new). I also spy friction bar-end shifters - if you like friction shifting, it's certainly low maintenance, but some prefer indexing. I've used both on my NWT - I currently have a Suntour rear derailleur of similar vintage with an Accushift bar-end shifter on the NWT.

As for fit, the Bike Fridays seem very flexible in terms of inseam length - I've lended mine out to short & tall people without complaint. But the curved Pocket Rocket stem is non-adjustable - if the handlebar height or reach isn't right, there's nothing you can do about it without cost-prohibitive changes. Note that early Bike Fridays were custom-built to fit a specific individual when new, and if you're close in terms of body size you might be OK - or not. The good news is the standover height is very forgiving.

In this market, asking $550 for any early-90s bike is a bit ambitious, even for a niche bike such as a Bike Friday. But if you like it, it fits you well, and it works for your needs, then it may be money well spent for a bike that checks off very specific criteria.

Edit: since it seems to have seriously triggered someone who is now on my ignore list, the strikeout comment above was meant in good-natured humor, as was the pre-block comment below. To steal a phrase, some of my most common acquaintances are big Brompton fans. If this was not previously clear, that is...

Ron Damon

When I started with folding bikes I rode narrow, short profile tires, such as the one on the BF. Then I started putting wider and wider tires because it made the ride less jarring, comfortable; lower pressure meant more control over rougher terrain; and the more plump tires meant that I could tackle a wider range of surfaces with greater confidence and comfort, the very varied surfaces of the real world. Today I ride this 58-406 tire rig and enjoy it very much for all l the reasons listed above. Are you sure you want a narrow tire, caliper brake folding bike for general use? I wouldn't.


All-road capable


47-406 on my other rig

Ron Damon

The teapot calling the kettle black. 😂🙄
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RoadWearier

Thanks for all of the info! Maybe I will stick with my original decision and get a new Liberte. While probably not as fast, seems like it will fold neater and easier and it comes with wider tires. I liked what I was reading about the Pocket Rocket feeling more like a "real" road bike, but I need to consider other factors, too. Esp if $550 isn't that great a deal. Unfortunately my paralysis by analysis means I missed out on the summer discount but oh well.

RCMoeur 

Harumph, I say. I've found Bike Friday owners to be generally supportive of the brand and loosely associate on occasion, but my observation of Brompton owners seems somewhat more intense in terms of brand loyalty.

A Bike Friday is a purchase, but a Brompton seems to be a commitment to a larger cause.

RCMoeur 

This seems to be a small-wheel version of the wider vs narrower discussions regarding larger-wheel bikes. On my NWT, I've run everything from 2.00 Maxxis Hookworms to 1.35 Schwalbes to thinwall Primos, and I really haven't noted much of a difference in ride quality, although I did notice minor differences in performance.

Ron Damon

Hmmm, no, it's not. Because I am not arguing that wider, fatter tires are "faster" or offer lower rolling resistance.

You don't notice a difference between thin-wall 1.35" and porky, thick Hookworms 2.00"? Wow. I would say, then, that you are not very observant and ought not be trusted on this issue. Either that, or here we have yet another example of the magical qualities that BF cultists owners ascribe to their bikes whereby no matter the part, once on a BF it becomes a high performance instrument. 😉

There's a posse of Primo devotees here. There's a good chance that they are gonna pounce on you for your sacrilege in failing to distinguish between that revered, elite tire and what they consider an inferior, déclassé BMX tire.

john m flores 

I own both a Zizzo Liberte and a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket. Both are good bikes. The Zizzo is a better folder. The Bike Friday is a better bicycle. It's as simple as that.

I've taken the Zizzo on rides as long as 30 miles; I would be faster, more comfortable, and having more fun on the Bike Friday. The Zizzo has a more budget-oriented drivetrain with a more limited gear range and more agrarian-feeling controls. The Zizzo feels less refined, more budget. It's a great budget folder, but the 20 year old Pocket Rocket that I purchased used is faster and more refined, with better/wider 2x drivetrain, better brakes, better feel, etc. It costs nearly 2x more than the Zizzo, so it better be better, even if it is 20 years older.

Regarding the tire size - I've mentioned this elsewhere, but if you want a folding bike that feels as close to a 700c steel road bike as possible, than the Pocket Rocket with slightly larger ETRTO451 wheels is as close as you are likely to get. The Zizzo, as much as I love it for what I use it for, does not even come close. Whether seated or standing, climbing or descending, the Pocket Rocket just feels like a good road bike.

Whether or not the narrow tires work for you will depend upon the roads you will ride on and whether or not you are versed in the art of raising your butt off the seat while navigating rough pavement, something I learned 30 years ago on aluminum Canondales with 700x23c 110PSI tires.

If you want to explore gravel trails, then perhaps look at the New World Tourist which supports wider tires. You will lose a bit of that magic ride quality of the Pocket Rocket but you'll be better on rougher terrain.

Finally, regarding the specific bike you are looking at - it's an ok price but not a deal. I'd be a little concerned about the bike and finding parts for the older standards of the time.

As others have mentioned - the reach of the gooseneck stem is not adjustable; it either fits or it doesn't. On another Bike Friday, I ordered a custom adjustable stem that worked with modern threadless stems to dial in the fit. It's not cheap - close to the cost of a used Liberte - but neither is a chiropractor.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

Jipe

The choice is between this very old Pocket Rocket and a Zizzo, not between a recent Pocket Rocket and a Zizzo.

This bike is very old, the Pocket Rocket changed a lot since this one was designed more than 30 years ago.

The whole transmission is obsolete (actually,m the 2x9s of the current mainstream Pocket Rocket with its narrow range 11-34 cassette is also obsolete) and there is no guarantee that the frame of this bike will accept any wide range cassette without having the chain rubbing against the rear triangle..

The stem is also obsolete, both its not adjustable shape and its mounting.

Besides the Zizzo, if the goal is to have a high performance folding bike without a small folded size, the new Swift can do the job and its cheaper tha a recent Pocket Rocket.

RoadWearier

Is that the origami Swift? The gear inches are a good selling point for me. A lot heavier than the Zizzo but I'll definitely consider it.

john m flores 

I have not ridden a Swift. Have you ridden a Bike Friday? Does your experience match this blogger who has ridden both?

https://bikingtoplay.blogspot.com/20...nd-vs.html?m=1

Ron Damon

Here we go again with this narcism of minute differences, mystifying the mundane and the inanity that people cannot comment unless they have ridden a bike. It's 2024, most bikes ride sufficiently well now. It's no longer -- it never was, in fact -- the exclusive ambit of Bike Friday.

I don't often agree with J!pe and I am not crazy about the Sw!ft, but here he offers better advice than that offered by BF cultists owners.

john m flores 

Have you ridden a Bike Friday?

Duragrouch

I think the first question to be asked is, what gear range do you need? The Pocket Rocket, even with its age, has a wider gear range than the Liberte, primarily in the low end. Do you need climbing gears that low? If you do, the Pocket Rocket may be better, though you can modify the Liberte with lower gears. Note: That age Pocket Rocket, depending on the rear dropout spacing and if the cassette is not hyperglide, may be tough to find replacement parts for. Also, this looked to me to be a Diamond Llama, I was not aware the NWT had a diamond frame early on. BFs also are either made to custom size, or S/M/L size frame in terms of effective top tube length. And, the Pocket Rocket stem is not adjustable.

The second question is, what is the widest tires you want to use, and what fits on the BF and what fits on the Liberte?

Jipe

It has a wide gear range because its a triple chainring crank.

But who is nowadays willing to use a not indexed triple chainring ?

Another point: this bike has ETRTO406 wheels and not ETRTO451 like the current Pocket Rocket (the Continental Contact tires are marked 406x28) and there is a lot of space between the top of the tire and the brake caliper, could it be that a previous owner changed the wheels from ETRTO451 to ETRTO406?

Duragrouch

Brakes: Good point, that definitely reduces braking power with the pads as low as they can go on those calipers. Maybe they used the same frame and fork for both 451 and 406?

Triple crank: While not the way to go with a new buildup these days, I think there's nothing wrong with using a bike already set up that way, and I don't think friction shifting is as much of an issue on FD versus RD, and really, to get indexing you only need to change the shifter. As the chainrings and cogs wear, a user could then go 2X or 1X if they desire, the latter perhaps depending on the rear dropout width.

But yeah, probably better deals to be had on a Bike Friday. You just need to watch, the lower end of the market has a lot of DualDrive with no FD hanger. And of course, buying the correct frame size. Above about 60% new price, I'd order a new one exactly to size and specs desired, and me, I'd have it equipped with a modern headset and folding handlepost instead of the disassembling one.

Jipe

Again, I do not deny the quality of the Pocket Rocket but the fact of buying this very old one with an old frame design (with a risk of being incompatible with wide range cassettes), old transmission (triple chainring with slow non indexed lever), old fixed stem (a quill stem I guess), ETRTO406 wheels...

john m flores 

Agree - I'd be a little wary of this particular Pocket Rocket for many of the reasons you stated. It's probably fine but better suited to someone familiar with the care and feeding of C&V bikes.

Regarding a non-indexed triple chainring - that's actually my preference because indexed triples often require finicky triDuragrouch is right - whether or not they are needed depends upon the use case. I certainly appreciated the triple while riding a loaded touring bike over the Green Mountains in Vermont a couple of years ago.
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Duragrouch

Quick search on craigslist in my town shows another NWT like that one with diamond frame, again, was not aware early NWT were like the later Diamond Llama. 1994, Medium frame, True Temper chrome-moly, standard straight handlepost, triple crank and 7-speed Suntour, cantis, 451, H-bars with bar-end shifters, rack, fenders, bottle cages, cup and cone BB, $900.

Pocket Tourist, monobeam frame, medium, 2X, Brooks, H-bars, V-brakes, $475, that's a better deal.

Several belt drives with IGH, $1000-1300.

Jipe

I do not like bar-end shifters on a drop bar: when the hands are on the brakes, not possible to change gears, when down on the drop bar to change gears, no access to the brake levers.

Not indexed front derailleur shifter with a triple is a pain in the ass, well positioning the lever on the middle chainring is slow (with a double or the smallest or bigger chainring of a triple, its of course not a problem, the lever can quickly be placed to one of its extreme positions).

The modern combos brake levers+gear levers for drop bar are much better, they are a real pleasure to use.

For a road bike, the Shimano 105 are excellent and not expensive, they are cheaper but identical in design to the Ultegra, only slightly heavier.

50PlusCycling

Bike Friday is not my cup of tea, but here in Japan you would be lucky to find any of their bikes in any condition for less than $1k. It looks like a good design (other than the hideous stem), and the standardardized construction means you can modify it for pretty much any purpose. I was able to upgrade my old 8 speed Moulton with its Sora driveline to Dura Ace Di2 with 11 speeds, everything simply bolted on.

john m flores 

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That sounds like a good deal. V-brakes will support wider tires too - 1.75" for sure, maybe 2.0". Plus, the longer wheelbase provides stabler handling than other folders and reduces heel clearance issues

Many Bike Fridays are purchased well-specced as 2nd or 3rd bikes by enthusiasts, used on a handful of trips, and eventually put away with not a lot of miles or wear on them. ​​​​

Ron Damon

One man's stability is another man's sluggishness. There's two sides to that coin. In other words, a longer wheelbase is not an absolute good or necessarily better.

john m flores 

Nope, not sluggish at all. The small wheels plus longer than typical wheelbase for a folder yields a fine handling bike - not too squirrelly like many small-wheeled folders and stable enough for long days in the saddle. I'm just getting comfortable riding no-hands, something that is quite challenging on the Zizzo. I can confidently carve a twisting mountain descent or place the front wheel wherever I need to on singletrack. Or I can load the front with a pair of panniers and mellow out the steering even more

You should try one. The used ones are decent value and take standard components for the custom 1x builds that you favor.