Ron Damon

This thread is dedicated to information and discussion of Shimano's newest groupset Cues, latest cogset tech Linkglide and its 1x offerings for folding bikes. This means necessarily a discussion of medium- and short-cage RD that jibe with the small wheel diameter of folding bikes. An interesting part in this regard is the Shimano Cues RD-U6000 medium-cage part rated up to 48T on 10-speed and up to 50T on 11-speed. I've purchased the part ($42) and it's on its way to me now. I am keen to compare its basic dimensions to the Shimano RD-M6000-GS part and gauge its suitability on 20" wheels.

Jipe

Linkglide was developed for mid-motor ebikes with high torque that make the transmission wear (much) faster.

It has a major drawback for folding bikes: all parts are heavier than equivalent hyperglide (even if Shimano reduced the weight of the latest Linkglide components vs. the first generation Linkglide).

Ron Damon

Reasonable folks will simply scoff at the additional 100-200 grams of a Linkglide cogset relative to a Hyperglide cogset, where the same speed and range counterpart exists, and see that as a fair trade for the increased durability and value of the Linkglide part. But evidently you are not among those reasonable folks. Not a huge surprise there.

Jipe

All Linkglide parts are incompatible with hyperglide, its not only the cassette but also the derailleur and the shifter that must be Linkglide and are heavier.

Example: this RD-U6000 weight 516g vs. 210g for a RD-R8000-GS, this RD-U6000 is a real boat anchor!

For a folding bike that must be carried folded, the weight of all components/parts count.

P.S. these Linkglide components are so heavy that Shimano doesn't dare to publish their weight like for all other components!

Ron Damon

What's the difference in weight between a Deore CS-M6100-11 Hyperglide 11-51T cogset and a Cues CS-LG400-11 Linkglide 11-50T cogset? About 100 grams.

Weight comparisons start at 7:07.

Ron Damon

What's the difference in weight between a Deore CS-M4100-10 11-46T Hyperglide cogset and a Cues CS-LG300-10 11-48T Linkglide cogset? About 130 grams.

Deore CS-M4100-10 11-46T Hyperglide weight at 2:31

Cues CS-LG300-10 11-48T Linkglide weight at 2:16

Jipe

The Deore cassette is also pretty heavy!

On a small wheels folding bike, the best solution is o use a cassette with a 9t or 10t smallest cog to have long enough max gear inches without a very big chainring what also avoid these huge heavy MTB cassettes

It also save weight on both he chainring and cassette.

The cassette I use weight 278g instead of 658g. The 11-50t weight 720g.

Again, Linkglide was developed for ebike and especially eMTB with mid-motor that have a very high torque, not for folding bikes!

Ron Damon

The other RD of potential interest for the matter at hand -- 1x on small wheels -- is the Shimano Cues RD-U4000 part rated to 46T max cog rear capacity. In practice, it can very likely be pushed to 11-48T and perhaps even to 11-50T.




Here we have an example of this part on a 20" (406) folding bike.

Jipe

Again, not designed for and inadequate for folding bikes:

Ron Damon

Another comparo of the two cogsets as well as their matching RD. Weight difference between the two cogset/RD pairs: About 130 grams

splithub

... why do you keep repeating yourself? Do you need help? Sure you have your opinion, like anyone else. And you recommend to employ a 9T cog as a fully qualified riding gear. That says everything i and everybody else with practical experience need to know about your depth of knowledge.

Jipe

If you really read the posts, you would see that there are two different CUES derailleur proposed, both with the same drawback for folding bikes.

And you should know that the major producers of bike transmissions SRAM, Shimano, Campagnolo all now have cassettes with smallest cog under 11t but all the engineers of these brands are probability stupid ?

Ron Damon

The magic of Linkglide -- greater durability and ease of smooth, non-clunky high-torque shifts when pedalling and shifting out of the saddle, claimed obsolescence of the method notwithstanding -- is in the cogsets. There are two 10-speed, 11-48T Cues Linkglide cogsets that can be used with the two medium-cage GS RD shown earlier. These cogsets are:



Cues also offers two different 11-50T, 11-speed cogsets. This is one such part:

Duragrouch

Per my moniker, durability matters a LOT to me.

But so does weight, as I need to carry my folder up stairs.

So my question is this: Why are the Linkglide cogs heavier? The animation and pics on Shimano seem to indicate a new tooth feature (I thought it looked like a minority of teeth on a cog are narrowed?) that smooths upshifts onto smaller cogs, reducing shock loads by 2/3. Now if that be the case, one would think that the same thickness cogs would last longer. Are the LinkGlide cogs thicker?

The increase in rear derailleur mass (by a lot) puzzles me; When in gear (steady state), higher chain tension shouldn't stress the RD more, everything is running through pullies. Are the cage and pantograph linkage beefed up to handle shifting under high torque, so higher lateral force needed? They must be, I can't think of any other reason to increase the mass that much. Unless it's all just general "ruggedizing" if they are designed for bike rental fleets. I've seen other stuff go that way when supplied for government or military use, to a flaw often, to withstand abuse, but at greatly increased mass.

Ron Damon

So, I received the Shimano Cues RD-U6000-GS medium-cage part, measured it, and tinkered with it while installed on one of my 20" (406) builds. Cut to the chase, it's too big and arguably inapt for 20" wheels. Not recommended for this application.




Cues U6000-GS RD on the left, Deore M6000-GS RD on the right

Note that the Cues part is nearly identical to the Deore RD-M5100 part which Shimano labels as SGS, long-cage.

Jipe

Yes, according to Shimano explanations, cogs are thicker.

For the rear derailleur mass, it could be due to the price of the CUES derailleur: one other goal of Shimano when designing CUES is to reduce the cost for the user by reducing the price of the components and by reducing he maintenance costs which is obtained by the possibility to replace parts of the cogs especially the smallest one and not only the whole cassette.

Shimano "discovered" than on the current ebikes with high torque mid-motor, users stay most of the time on the smallest cogs because due to the high torque they do not feel the need to move to the bigger cogs (as already mentioned, Shimano doesn't give the weight of the CUES components but I found a weight of 720g for the 11-50t cassette !)..

I have a cargo bike with a 10s Deore rear derailleur+cassette and a high torque Bosch Cargo Line mid-motor and shifting is very soft, there are no shocks when changing gears while I tested another ebike with the same type of Bosch motor and a 12s XT rear derailleur and microspline Shimano SLX CS-M7100 10-43 cassette and sifting under load was terrible: very brutal and noisy gear changes. The owner of this ebike experienced a very fast wear of the cassette that doesn't happen with the Deore transmission!?

But again, its a problem that only happen on ebikes with high torque mid-motor, not on normal bikes without electric assist.

Note that the replacement of only parts of the cogs is also possible with hyperglide cassettes like for instance XT 10s cassettes. No need to move to the heavy Linkglide for this.

Ron Damon

You apparently didn't get the memo, and evidently do not fully comprehend the transformation now underway. Shimano will phase out Deore 11sp, Deore 10sp and all MTB components below Deore completely. Those Deore components that you use and laud will no longer be made or be available. They are going away. Finito. That will leave you with either using Linkglide Cues or using the SLX and XT Hyperglide Plus 12sp stuff with the new spline that you yourself said shifted terribly. One day, soon enough, there won't be an option between Linkglide Cues and Hyperglide Deore 10sp/11sp. It will all be either 9/10/11sp Cues or 12/13sp SLX/XT/XTR. Wake up. You are trying to block the sun with your thumb.

I am not a Cues devotee or promoter. But I am pragmatic and I am clear-eyed about what's coming down the pike. If Cues offers good, value parts appropriate for small wheelers, I'll use them. Simple as that. No need to be doctrinaire about this, or choose one camp or the other.

Folks may wish to start hoarding Deore M4100 and Deore M5100 Hyperglide stuff now before it's gone. One key part that I reckon will be missed is the 11sp Deore M5100 11-51T Hyperglide cogset.

Ron Damon

DG, you'll have to pardon my continued insolence, but I've seen how much stuff you schlepp on your bike. It's a lot of mass. You cannot be serious about an increase of 150-200 grams when you are riding a veritable moving truck. There's a huge plank in your eye.

Duragrouch

Guilty as charged. I didn't mention it because I didn't think it relevant for most other folks. But the logical questions remain (and forgive me that I am not intimately knowledgeable about Linkglide cog thicknesses): If the Linkglide cassette is heavier, I'm guessing the cogs must be thicker? But to fit a given Shimano "speed", the tooth thickness (which is what matters for durability, if same steel), cannot get thicker, true?

Now, radially below the teeth, maybe the cogs are thicker for greater lateral stiffness to be better shifting under load? All the larger cassettes have the cogs riveted together just under the teeth, for sufficient lateral stiffness on cogs in the 40s through 50s. Plus, the biggest cassettes have aluminum carriers that greatly reduce the steel on the cogs, and give better stiffness. One would think Linkglide cassettes are the same? If so, I don't see the need for thicker cogs. The reduction in shock loading should increase durability on its own.

Sidebar: At the LBS a week ago, I saw a used Dura-Ace crank and rings, one of the last ones with 5 arm spiders similar to campy, and the 53 chainring, the outboard side just had shallow-angle bevels at the slots, but on the inboard side there was intricate CNC milling, hollowing out the ring in a web pattern that left just enough ribs for needed stiffness. That's how to make the ring laterally stiff and light. I hadn't seen that and was impressed by it.

The CUES RD, I can understand it being heavier, it's larger and appears beefier for more severe duty.

But the heavier cassette doesn't yet make sense to me. I'm sure there's a reason for the added mass. I don't mean rationale, the mission. I mean, where is the additional steel, and why.

EDIT: I think I see why the cassette is so heavy, at least the lowest offering. It doesn't have the typical aluminum inner carrier. It appears all except the lowest cog extend to the center hub, all steel, with great numbers of radial riveting to hold it all together. So I think perhaps cogs not thicker material. It's lower cost and strong, but at the expense of weight, which does not matter for its target market, either ebike fleets or home use, where no one is going to haul up stairs.

I don't need to worry about or hoard the current lighter wide-range cassettes. I don't need them, remember? Everything old is new again. I never liked wide neckties either.

Jipe

It seems you do not remember that I do not use MTB components on my folding bikes, I use Ultegra.

As you discovered, medium cage, long cage doesn't mean always the same cage length, typically, because they are made to accept huge cassettes, current MTB derailleur are pretty big and bulky, bigger than the road derailleur with a cage length having the same name (its not only Shimano, look how big SRAM Eagle derailleur are).

Those big MTB derailleur designed for huge cassettes and now foe eMTB are less and less suited for small wheels folding/not-folding bikes.

Ron Damon

The Shimano Cues RD-U4000-GS part, rated nominally up to 46T max cog, has arrived. Both its pulley-to-pulley and tension-pulley-to-pivot distances are shorter than those on the Shimano Deore RD-M6000-GS part by about 1.3cm. We may have a winner!




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Recall that Cues RD and shifters are compatible in practice with Hyperglide cogsets. Likewise, Cues RD are compatible with 9sp/10sp/11sp Cues shifters. Pick your poisons: Hyperglide or Linkglide, and choice of speeds. Finally, the Cues RD is about $7 less expensive than the Deore RD. 🔥🔥🔥

Jipe

I see that Shimano also increased the number of teeth of the pulley from 11 to 13.

Did you compare the weight of the RD -U4000-GS with the one of the Deore ?

The lower price is normal, with the CUES, Shimano wanted to offer something cheaper, probably to compete against the growing Chinese derailleur competition?

Duragrouch

(above) That bodes well.

The CUES pulley says POM which I think refers to the material, Delrin in a POM, and is considered a high-strength plastic. I don't know if that is already common or new. That may explain the large lightening/plastic-saving holes in the pulleys, which looked less beefy than the rest of it, but Delrin is strong. (In earlier photos, I perceived the CUES pulley teeth to be deeper than normal, possibly to hold up to higher lateral shift forces under load, but that could wrong on both counts.)

Ron Damon

Duragrouch

(above) Oh I'm very familiar with Delrin. It's wonderful stuff. Been used on ski bindings for decades, and that needs strength and toughness. Machines *lovely*, even easier than aluminum, just mills and turns so nice. A little expensive at the time over lesser plastics, but such a fantastic material.