maddog34

Speed Limits imposed on Mackinac Island, Ebikes banned on Key Biscayne, Florida.
Can Helmet laws and Licensing be far off, Nationwide?
Wattage limits, and other regs being proposed.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...?ocid=BingHp01

Rick

It rounds like the Karen's are in charge. The ebike is the latest scapegoat receiving much attention from the non bicycle riding public. The total ban on ebikes in some city in Florida was a knee jerk reaction To some old lady cutting off an 11 year old on an ebike. She is dead so nobody has a right to ride an ebike. This kind of stupid will continue as long as Karen is in charge.

indyfabz

unterhausen

Moved here from General Cycling, sorry OP

indyfabz

You don’t grasp what “Karen” means. If anything, you sound like a Karen wanting to see the manager to complain about restrictions. Educate yourself and think before you post.

maddog34

this is no different than the backlash against motorized bikes... except it's quieter.

i used to watch a man fly past a shop i worked at, every day, about noon... he was HAULING!
the cops pulled him over for speeding...he never wore a helmet.
he kept speeding... estimated at 55+ mph, in a 35 zone... on a major 4 lane highway... still no helmet.... .a few months went by, then he wasn't seen or heard again.
I hope he's ok.
backward baseball caps offer zero skull protection.

Doc_Wui

Mackinac Island is a rare case, being a town with 600 fulltime residents and reportedly over a half million visitors in season per the very rich guy who runs the ferry. I can see why they don't want to bring cars over with 20K people a day coming to buy fudge and t-shirts,

Save up your money and take the ferry to Capri, The Italians know how to cook,

YankeeRider

I have a regular bike and an e-bike and I can see two sides to this. The people riding like idiots, ruin it for everyone else. You have cyclists saying "Hey, I've got rights and I'm a legitimate part of traffic on this street"... and then you have cyclists who blithely ignore stops signs and traffic lights and ride fast on the sidewalks though pedestrians, ride the wrong way down one-way streets, ride against traffic at the edge of the lane, etc.- just generally being a hazard while acting like "Rules, regulations, laws - don't apply to me, I'm just a child". You can't have it both ways.

john m flores 

When I was in Capri 15+ years ago, it was overrun with people wanting to buy gelato and t-shirts. Ischia was more chill. Procida chiller still.

linberl

It's not the device, it's the user. That's always the case. Adults can go 20-24 mph on pathways on manual bikes. They can ride in groups and not yield space. They can cut too close to pedestrians when passing to save .0001 on their Strava. Many e-bikes are speed limited and pathways have signs with speed max. Can they go faster, yes, but cars can go 100mph and we rely on signs to control the speed. When it doesn't work, it is the user, not the vehicle. E-bikes allow folks to ride who would otherwise not be riding. E-bikes allow folks to skip using a car for short trips. E-bikes allow families to skip a 2d car. There are plenty of good reasons to allow e-bikes. They need to be treated like cars when someone goes excessively fast. Give speeding tickets. We don't prohibit cars on residential streets even though people speed thru them. Manual cyclists ignore stop signs more than e-bikers do because e-bikes minimize the need to start momentum from zero when you stop. Treat cyclists just like drivers when speeding and stupid behavior occurs - ticket the individual. And, frankly, I'd rather have morons riding bikes than driving cars of 3k+ tons.

Rick_D

This right here, times infinity.

Wildwood 

Backlash usually occurs with most rapid changes. Technology and innovation overtake society's ability to adapt at the same rate. In this case, many cities/regions have an infrastructure for traditional bikes, usually including the greater population of walkers, runners, family strollers, dog walkers, etc. This infrastructure was never intended for motored transport; hence, backlash when 28mph motored vehicles are introduced. Further backlash when companies market ebikes capable of speeds well beyond 28mph.

When I get passed by folks going near 28 mph on a 10' wide packed dirt and gravel trail, I want regulation + enforcement. 3-4" tires kick out gravel bits frequently and often there is a group with a kid or newbie that have a hard time staying on their 1/2 of the trail. Walkers on the trail have the option of stepping off the trail to yield (and let the dust settle). Dogs (on leash) can bark their disapproval. Glad I'm not an equestrian.

Yes, it is the operator not the machine. Most riders are courteous. But 28mph (or more) without pedaling, 3" tires, and a motor is not a bicycle, imho.

I ride an e-road bike with EU standard of assist up 20kph, if pedaling. No throttle. It is more like bi-cycling than motor-cycling.

However, commuting/traveling on roads and dedicated bikeways at speeds up to 28mph is something I fully support.

So it is a bit of a dilemma. Whatever 'solution' is implemented will be met with backlash. And do not expect all to act responsibly - neither producers nor consumers.

maddog34

as weight of vehicle increases, so will damages caused by collisions/crashes. Stopping distances also increase, and at an exponential rate.
riding any open vehicle with no helmet is inherently dangerous.

E-bikes make bicycling more tempting and accessible to inexperienced people with no clue as to what may happen, or how to be courteous or safe..
This occurred with the Rise of the inherently tipsy Three Wheelers, then 4 wheel ATVs... 6 year olds on top of 40 HP, 400lb. bouncing balls with terrible brakes, and the kids couldn't reach them anyway... press the start button, press the throttle, and promptly run into the nearest obstacle.

i think education is more important than punishing ignorance...
show a few mangled faces, a shattered collar bone or three..., scars and contusions..., show trails closed by damage or liability concerns, signs banning Ebikes.... make new buyers take a class on how to ride and how they should behave... and the class will remove the blanket excuse of ignorance, too..
and if a young child screws up.. ticket the parent/s

i have a neighbor that rarely "teaches" his kids a thing... he just removes the toy from them,doesn't let them experience life outside the home via groundings... etc.
The kids are now reaching adulthood, and are not equipped with the skills to make it in the bigger world they now face. One was recent arrested for violence and drugs. one crashed her bike into a guardrail with not helmet on her head... then hit a parked car a week later... dad took the bike away... i looked at it some time later... No Brakes at all... removed bt=y dad since "they didn't work anyway!"
dad drinks, mom uses pills... they "learned" from bad examples how to be bad.
we all need to be good examples.... you never know who night be watching.
The 2nd oldest boy (6 boys, one girl) was given a low end MTB recently... he wanted me to "can you make it shift?"... i fixed the brakes first...set the shift cable tension, then warned him about the rickety suspension fork, in danger of falling apart... i offered a replacement fork, ten bucks... he hasn't ridden it since. he took his own toy away.

the 4th oldest boy was given a BMX bike... dad promptly screwed up the brakes "fixing them", then took the bike away from him because he rode it too far... Andrew got 3 ride sessions in before it was taken away... he went too far when he went around the block. he's now 8... i was knocking out 20 mile rips on my stingray at his age, paying for parts with a paper route and mowing lawns.... and in a lot bigger city.

i say punish the parents when the kids mess up.
a local law made helmets mandatory for any bicyclist under 16... "neighbor dad" now makes his kids wear helmets.... when their bikes haven't been taken away.
"but dad says Helmets take away my Freedom!"
crashing without one might just take away their life.

maddog34

no biggy, but i still think it's a bigger, more General discussion.... as seen from the responses.

hmmm... fudge or gelato... fudge. or . gelato....... naw... ice cold cinnamon apple sauce!

maddog34

it seems the majority of the problems are behind the controls.

veganbikes

Hmmm I wonder if you made like a granita or sorbet out of apple sauce how that would be?

Back to subject there will always be backlash and especially amongst politicians who barely understand much of anything. I think it will subside once we get things sorted like calling a moped a moped and a pedal assist bike a bike and solve all of that. Regardless of their rules they can pry any one of my bikes including my e-bikes from my cold dead hands!

Rick

Your assumptions are many in this situation.The 11 year old didn't brake any laws. The dead old lady made a mistake and suffered the consequences. stealing the public's right to travel on an ebike in this situation is ludicrous and irresponsible. Karen is in charge in this situation.

Making laws on the island to protect the safety of everyone is their right. Not enforcing the current laws and increasing restrictions and bans on the rest of us is disgusting. and should be challenged. Statements like a few bad people wreck it for the rest of us are really weak. Their is no excuse for irresponsible lazy people who won't enforce the laws that exist but will continue to plague us with their unrighteous dominion.

indyfabz

Until one of those morons delivering for DoorDash mows you down on the sidewalk.

roundypndr 

Hopefully the rider's bike was impounded, and the rider got some seat time in the PD Hilton, since I wouldn't want to have anyone to be scrapped off the pavement.

At 20 mph, the knobby tires on my E bike make an awful racket, but on the plus side, pedestrians can hear me coming down the road.

linberl

I'm curious where you are encountering a impactful number of 28mph class 3 ebike riders with fat tires? I live in the Bay Area and it's rare to see a class 3 on our city pathways. I do see some fat tire bikes but they are usually cheap China bikes and top out at 20 mph. typically it is the packs or roadies going fast that pass the ebike riders at speed. Good class 3 ebikes are expensive! Most of the ebikes i see are either Trek/Specialized hybrids which are pretty lightweight or Costco/Chinese ebikes. I hardly see any retrofits anymore. Maybe it's more of an issue on "nature" trails rather than city pathways? And on a tangentially related note, why is it that cyclists on signed SHARED paths are expected to watch out for pedestrians but pedestrians make NO attempt to look out for cyclists or even look before changing directions or stepping onto the path? Aargh.

Rick_D

You're right that Class 2 ebikes are capped to 20mph in the state, but some can be jail-breaked for higher speeds. There's even legislation proposed to halt the practice.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...02320240AB1774

In the Sacramento region there are plenty of very fast fat-wheel throttle bikes bombing around the roads, sidewalks, bike paths. I believe they do not fall under the ebike designation but rather, are "motorized bicycles" or "motor-driven" cycles as defined by DMV.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/handbo...cle-operation/

"Motorized scooter" covers a whole other realm and I do not know what the one-wheel thingies are called nor how they're regulated. They seem to be a cult item among folks who don motocross garb and travel in little packs.

john m flores 

So you'd prefer a collision with a car over one with an ebike?

shelbyfv

Cars on sidewalks. Ooops.

Wildwood 

This trail runs several miles before turning into a narrower paved multipurpose trail. Frequently groups going 25+mph.

maddog34

it's a matter of arrogance... the hikers/walkers feel superior because they choose to stroll... i choose to Roll.
once while riding a rather long old trail i helped keep clear, we came across two hikers... it was dusk, the sun had long vanished behind the ridge above... the trail was rough and followed an old rail line down a valley... the creek now wandered across the trail in several places, further roughening passage... they flagged us down... we shut off our dirt bikes.. "Hey.. Do you know which way to get back to Flying M Ranch? we're kinda lost, and it's getting Dark!" November in the Oregon Coast range can be very unpleasant, IMO... "You'll need to backtrack about a hundred yards, then go north up the steep hill, and turn right at the top when it tees into the road.. that's The Old Toll Road, and will take you back down to Flying M the quickest way possible."... "Oh, ok.. we saw that trail, but it looked too steep... thanks! We were really getting worried!.. hey... Your dirt bikes cause erosion and Stink."
The Trask Mountain M/C Club had maintained that Trail for 30+ years, at that time.. it wasn't passable until they reopened it... It got groomed whenever it was used in the Trask Mountain Two Day ISDE Qualifier event... we would stop and clear any deadfalls when we rode through... it's how the thousands of miles of trails in that region stay open... the hikers heard no goodbyes from me or my riding buddy.. we pulled our helmets back on and roosted away, down our trail.
the hikers were about 7 miles from the Flying M Dude Ranch....it would be Very dark before they made it out on foot....

Locally, Linear trail users complain about the Clear cuts along the nice level trail they enjoy... "People shouldn't cut trees down!"... guess why that level "trail" is in the mountains... Logging Rail lines and Log Truck mainlines... built and maintained by folks like my grand dad. All that wood in their 4K sq.ft. suburban mansions had to come from somewhere.

it seems arrogance can sometimes cause ignorance and blindness.

Buggy Whip Companies fought against the Automobile.