nStyle

Hi guys. I had a Novara MTB from REI that I returned. One thing I miss about it, however, is the hydraulic brakes. Great modulation and instant stopping if I wanted it to.

I then moved to a Trek 8.3 DS. It has mechanical brakes and I love the bike overall but I can't adjust the brakes to stop like the hydraulics on the Novara did. They are both disc brakes.

I could instantly slide my back tire when I wanted to on the Novara, but it seems impossible to do so with the 8.3. Not saying that roughing up the ground is a good thing, but sometimes it is necessary. I also don't think it would be possible to do a "stoppie" with these front brakes since I just can't instantly stop.

I've read and I have seen where most have said that mechanical vs hydraulic is personal preference and should both perform about equally well, but either I have a problem with my bike or I am too heavy or a combination of both because I am not having the same experience as I have read.

Ideas?

FBinNY 

There are lots of variables that can come into play regarding rim brake stopping power. Make sure your rims are clean and the shoes deglazed and all other adjustments are on target, but even with all being right I'm not surprised that you have less ability to lock a rear mtn bike wheel.

OTOH, there may not be a large difference in total braking distance, since most of the stopping power comes from the front wheel, and either type brake has enough stopping power to cause an endo, so more power is a meaningless concept.

prathmann

The rim condition shouldn't matter since the OP has disk brakes. But there could be an issue with contamination of the disk and/or pads or the cable adjustment. Sounds like this is a recent new bike purchase in which case I'd take it back to the dealer and have them check it over. Much easier to diagnose problems in person than over the web.

FBinNY 

Good point, I mis-read hydraulic vs mechanical as vs rim brakes. Since they're both discs, there shouldn't be a significant difference.

Tunnelrat81

You'll be able to find some disc brake break-in instructions online. I have an older mtn. bike with avid mechanical bb7 disc brakes, and had to go through the process to get braking power back after replacing all the pads. As I remember, it basically entails a series of speeding up and braking hard almost to a stop, over and over a certain number of times. Not sure what exactly is being accomplished by this, but my brakes are now plenty strong, and have been ever since doing the procedure. It could be that the hydraulic brakes that you had on the other bike were already broken in. Just give it some time on the new bike before being frustrated. Look up "disc brake break in" or something on either avid's site or just google. You should be able to find it. Good luck.

-Jeremy

Sixty Fiver

Break in is really important and until things are bedded in the braking will not be at 100%... the advantage hydros have over mechanical disc brakes is that in most cases you have a lighter lever and better modulation although better quality mechanical discs are also quite responsive.

mcoomer

Not sure how old you bike is but you can definitely help new brake pads to perform their best. For starters, when you change pads or if you suspect contamination, clean your rotors. Spray some break cleaner into a clean rag and wipe down both sides of the rotors. Repeat then wipe with a clean towel. That will clean any chain lube, suspension fluids, or oily grime from your rotors. If you suspect your pads are contaminated, change them out with a new set. Brake pad material is not impermeable and any oily contaminant will soak into the pad and reduce stopping power. Finally, when you have new brakes you can help them along by bedding them properly. Get your bike up to speed and apply the brakes, increasing pressure slowly until you stop. Ride for a minute to allow the pads to cool and repeat a number of times (5-10 should be sufficient). Bedding your pads cleans your rotors, the heat cooks out impurities in the pads, and it allows a thin accumulation of the pad material on the rotor. This accumulation allows the brake pad to work better when you hit the binders.

Do it right and good mechanical brakes should provide plenty of stopping power, if not the feel and control of hydraulics. If the bike is new, take it back to the shop and explain your concern. Let them take a look and make sure there are no problems that need attention.

Mike

gforeman 

When my disc started fading on my BB5 brakes, at the recommendation of the LBS, I just used water to clean them and it made a big difference on these little BB5 pads. Sometimes I would stop on my ride and squirt them with my water bottle to get my stopping power back.

I upgraded to BB7 system and don't seem to have the problem with the larger pads, though I do spray them down periodically just to be safe, but never had to do it during a ride.

Not sure what system that bike has.

cyccommute 

I did a little check on the Tektro brakes that you bike is equipped with and the seem to be stinkers. I suspect that the brakes need centering and the fixed pad needs adjustment. This adjustment method worked well to get rid of the spongy feeling that my BB7's had. I've used it on other brands of brakes at the coop I volunteer at to good effect.

nStyle

Thanks for the replies!

Both the Novara and the Trek are both new bikes within the past month. I have nothing else to compare them to other than the two themselves since I haven't owned a bicycle in a long time.

I have put 4 hours on the Trek so far going down fairly steep grades and applying various amount of pressure to both the front and back brakes, but I still can't get instant stopping power like I could on the Novara out of the box. Maybe the brake quality is just subpar and I need to trade up?

gforeman 

I can't recommend the BB7's enough. Superior to the stock BB5's I had by far.

fietsbob

Now , there are a few hydraulic mechanical hybrids, to muddy the division ..

TRP Hy Rd, is all hydraulic in the caliper , but pulled by a long cable.. And there is
cable to hydraulic disc converters , out a couple years, short cable longer hoses..

Have Hydraulic Rim brakes on one bike, I Quite like..

Main functional difference comes in how pad wear is compensated , to maintain feel, travel at the lever.

that adjustment is something a person does, on mechanical cable disc brakes.. DIY or shop tune-ups.
hydraulics , the designer included the pad wear compensation in the system.. an auto adjust..

when you got the bikes they told you the recommended bedding in process with new discs and pads , right?

It has effect on how they work after that.



In Addition there is the variable of how big the disc is , and what pads you select, and set up,
as well as, as I said what you do when you first start riding the disc brake bike.

sreten

Hi,

Cables are never going to have the instant response of hydraulics.

Same as motorcycle dudes arguing about standard and reinforced
hydraulic lines. however the brakes are probably just as effective,
but the feel and force needed on the lever varies with type.

I rode a friends bike recently. Compared to my two bikes the
brakes were utterly vicious *, (good as they need to be though),
I was popping stoppies on the front and locking up the back
all over the place for the 10 minutes or so I road it around.

I told him - don't ride my bike, you'll kill yourself not stopping.

rgds, sreten.

* The older parallelogram style Shimano V-brakes.

nStyle

I switched the 8.3 DS out for the 8.4 with the hydraulics, and I'm still not satisfied. The back are good and have great modulation and stop really quick. I can slide the tire if I want. The front, have very little play and hardly any modulation and I can't do an endo if I wanted to. I don't see any adjustment like on a mechanical either.

Very very frustrated!

GeorgeBMac

Yes, I hear ya! I been having a very similar problem: I have a 2012 Trek DS 8.5 with Shimano Alivio hydraulic disks -- and I couldn't ask for anything better. Everything about them is outstanding -- including the ability to stop on a dime whenever I need to.

A few months back I got a 2008 LeMond Poprad with BB7 mechanical disks and, compared to the Shimano hydraulics they are junk. The stopping power is about half that of the hydraulics and the 105 levers feels spongy.

Admittedly I have not replaced anything on them (like the pads) -- but everything looks good. But I have to keep adjusting them as they seem to go out of adjustment on a very regular basis. Actually a couple of times at the end of a ride, the back wheel (where I have most of the problems) wouldn't spin freely at all until I backed off the pads several clicks. ( I have no idea how that happened).

My LBS does not seem to think there is anything wrong with them...

But, as far as power, it makes sense to me that the hydraulics would have significantly more since BOTH pads exert force on the rotor instead of the BB7's where only the outer pad moves.

I am considering trying the Shimano CX75 mechanicals. When I asked my LBS about them, they had not used them -- but said they would order a set for one of their demo bikes so they could try them.

Anyway, I think we are both quite frustrated. But, I agree with you: the hydraulics seem to be far superior to the mechanicals in all ways.

Burton

Neither brake is in any way exceptional so IMO you were probably happier with your first experience because it was better set up. Rotor size, number of calipers and master cylinder design all impact hydraulic performance and can give an edge over mechanical, but proper break-in and set-up affect both. Suggest you 'test drive' a couple setups that actually work well.

I'm currently still trying to work the bugs out of an XT front hydraulic setup with ceramic pistons that I KNOW isn't supposed to work like this. And the rear is fine. It may have to go back in for warranty work. Not everything is obvious.

nStyle

On the 8.5, can you endo if you wanted to? I traded for the 8.4 but still am not really satisfied with the brakes. they are Hayes hydraulics this time but they still seem to be lacking in the SP department.

For some reason the 8.4 seems heavier than the 8.3 too.

And yes, Burton, you are likely spot on. I am probably just dealing with crappy brakes all together and I do think I did prefer the setup of the 8.3. It just felt perfect, if it weren't for the horrible stopping power.

GeorgeBMac

NStyle, I'm not sure I know what "Endo" means -- but the Shimano Alivio hydraulic brakes on my 2012 DS 8.5 have more than enough stopping power for me. To be honest, I would be afraid to apply the full power of these brakes and, despite a number of emergency stops to avoid slopping up the bike from running over a few kids and dogs, I have never used their full power. But I do know that I can lock the wheels on pavement quite easily... (BTW, they use just a 160 mm rotor).

I've never tried the upper end hydraulics from the Shimano line -- but I suspect they would provide even more stopping power. I understand that they even shortened the lever so the rider can only use one or two fingers.

BTW, I have heard on the 'Hybrid' forum that Trek had trouble with the Hayes brakes in 2012 -- but I think the trouble was excessive squealing.