Kontact

It is also interesting to note that none of the major US titanium manufactures recommend anything but grease.

smd4

In the shop we always used white lithium, so that is an option. But as noted above, over the course of years it would dry out. I do like Phil, but my preference these days is for Dura Ace grease. That stuff never dries out.

hexade

Any opinions on Muc Off Biogrease? Is this suitable as an assembly grease? Thanks!

grumpus

I had one of those earlier this year, a late '80s/early '90s tourer that the guy had put just a bit too much white grease everywhere you might think that grease should go. Now in fairness this had been left outside for a year or two, after being unused for several years, and there really wasn't much rust on it, but everything required more effort to loosen, and there was sticky goo that didn't just wipe off with a rag like regular grease does.

grumpus

I recently saw a recommendation to completely strip and rebuild a bike annually, and although that might seem a little excessive as a basic maintenance routine it would certainly help to see how well your anti-corrosion measures were working, and if anything was getting contaminated.

Bricycle

no. It’s Columbus SL

Kontact

So your frame and probably your BB cups are steel, but you're using copper anti-galling antiseize between them?

Lots of extra mess and bother for no real reason.

cossor

replacing the Phil Waterproof Grease in my bottom bracket, pedals, and wheels after 20+ years revealed that it doesn't dry out. on the other hand, online chatter convinced me that any good grease is good enough. unfortunately, inexpensive grease isn't packaged conveniently. so i bought Mercedes Benz wheel bearing grease: lower unit cost + similar package = satisfaction?

rust inside my steerer tube conspired with who-knows-what to leave brown plaque on my stem. in a threaded joint, there is ample space for the metal particles suspended in an anti-seize product. this joint is quite different, and i think we use grease to “prevent” corrosion primarily because it's always on hand.

after scrubbing the stem, i planned to wrap it with cheap plumber's tape. (the anode rod i bought for my water heater came with the thinnest PTFE tape i've ever seen.) now i dislike this idea, but think this tape will be useful on the steerer tube threads. now that it's out, gotta use it somewhere :-)

so i dunked the top of the steerer tube in recycled Evapo-Rust and planned to spray (waxy) Kano Weatherpruf inside it. after rust survived the dunking, i painted the tube with Rust-Oleum Rust Reformer instead.

in short, the best solution depends on what you already own and other factors.

Kontact

Reinventing the wheel.

Rust stains on other metals are easy to remove with something like Barkeeper's Friend.

cossor

did i fail to remove my stem's rust stains? regardless, my steerer tube's condition seems more important. we shouldn't tolerate rust there.

Duragrouch

I could be wrong, but it has been my understanding that the very fine metal particles in anti-seize (which is a grease base) is to try to get closer to the friction coefficient of clean-and-dry (compared to just grease), while still preventing galling and seizing. I was warned long ago (by an experienced mechanical engineer, my dad) to not put oil or grease on some threads as it will result in over-torquing. I think this may have been regarding wheel lug studs/nuts.

I use silver (aluminum) anti-seize for most applications, like steel and aluminum bikes. I use copper-based anti-seize for high temp applications like automotive exhaust system bolts. For even higher temp applications involving stainless steel, titanium, and nickel, I use nickel anti-seize. The high-temp versions I think also have a high-temp stable carrier grease.

Kontact

Galling and seizing are usually associated with high temps and/or seriously corrosive environments. Neither describe the inside of any bicycle bearing mechanism.

cossor

the anti-seize-on-wheel-studs debate continues ... i believe anti-seize should be used on those threads. on the other hand, if it gets between the lug nut and the wheel, it lubricates an interface that should be dry and bad things can happen.

not long ago, i noticed that i could not remove my lug nuts. so i asked my mechanic to retorque them, mentioning that i would reinstall them with anti-seize. when i got home, i discovered that the shop had put anti-seize on the threads very precisely, as though they had a tool for this purpose. and they didn't charge me :-)

this being a bike forum ... it *should* be possible to assemble a bicycle with materials similar to the ones used when it was first assembled. on the other hand, after installing a headset with plumber's tape, i have to say that it might be the ideal steerer tube thread lubricant. as we phase out fluorinated compounds, i suspect that PTFE will be the last to go.

Duragrouch

I've seldom seen galling on plain carbon steel like 4130, though sometimes if both elements are soft ; I worked in a machine shop before engineering, and the speed adjustment screw on a DoAll bandsaw had broke, so I quickly turned a new one from simple cold-rolled steel, and even with grease, it immediately galled badly in the female nut. Not hard enough. I replaced both the next day with proper parts. And that was at room temp. Stainless steel bolts and aluminum parts, I've seen galling all the time on dry parts, usually not from the get-go, but after several assembly-disassembly cycles, which causes the surface finish to deteriorate. (Which is why some machines I worked on, every aluminum threaded hole was helicoiled from the factory, and when serviced, every loosened bolt (all stainless) was replaced with new.) Especially if moving under constant pressure like that bandsaw screw, not simply tight when assembled then no pressure when unscrewing. Early stainless-steel semi-auto pistols had galling between the slide and frame until they figured out what alloys, and what dissimilar alloys or hardness, prevented galling. And again, ambient temperature. I don't know what it was about that stainless, even at same hardness of carbon steel, that caused it to gall, but it does.

So anyway, I don't take chances. I had a stainless rack bolt gall (dry) and almost destroy the female threads on the bike frame. So I anti-seize everything. And I use my rack bolt retention strategy noted in another thread. Bottom bracket bearings are installed for a long time (especially these external bearings, I LOVE, they seem to be lasting a lot longer, I think because I can adjust and maintain preload). Came new with the blue stuff on the threads near the outer rim, I put on anti-seize anyway, torqued to spec (as close as I could estimate, didn't have a socket cup wrench to fit torque wrench), they've stayed put. Pedal spindles need to be on tight, lots of precession forces and fully-reversed bending trying to loosen them, and with anti-seize, always easy removal, yet always stay on when intended.

And yes, anti-seize is a worse mess than grease. So I'm careful to wipe off excess.

Having said the above, looking now online, I see that:
- High temp apps are the predominant use of anti-seize, as the particulate "lubricating metal" will be there long after the grease base has burned off.
- Bolts lubed with anti-seize and torqued same as clean and dry, can exceed proof load of the bolt, bad (I did not know). But, use of anti-seize reduces the scatter (deviation) of the load based on torque, from 22% to 3% (3/8" coarse, zinc plated, 5000 lb target tension, 10 samples). I'll need to look if torque specs for bike stuff is assuming dry or greased, and how close greased is to anti-seized.

Oh, and I am also reading that there are some anti-seize greases for where metal is not allowed, one mentions calcium compounds, that may be what my green marine wheel bearing grease is, I recall reading it is a calcium base; I've been using that exclusively for grease since recommended by the widely referenced Aaron's Bike Repair who has contributed to Sheldon Brown and who is a semi-local bike shop.

Duragrouch

Only recently I've wondered about using teflon tape. If I didn't have anti-seize, I probably would. It is less messy. It just needs to be wrapped on in the direction such that tightening the bolt will tighten the wrap and not unwind it. I've used it mostly on tapered plumbing threads as a sealant; I don't know if there is sufficient clearance in standard threads for a layer of that to successfully thread on.

Kontact

The damage done with a dry screw does not disprove the value of grease or demonstrate a need for anti-seize. It just demonstrates that threading something in dry is dumb.

Duragrouch

Fair enough! Well said. Something so basic is not taught in grade school. But it should be. If I ran the world, there would be an option in junior high, for bike repair, instead of or in addition to wood shop. And they'd actually teach how to cook in home ec, instead of filling a premade pie shell with instant pudding (what my home ec actually taught, totally useless class).

cossor

grease usually comes with fairly complete information. this is important to people who add new grease to old, because they might be incompatible. unfortunately, finding information about expensive grease products often entails reading their safety data sheets (SDS), and a little luck.

i couldn't find the type of thickener used in Phil Waterproof Grease (PWG), but its SDS says it contains an “aquatic toxicant” without providing a CAS number. no luck :-)

grease color is brand-specific, so PWG's dark green color isn't helpful. a lighter color is more practical.

now that bicycles are expensive, people can justify buying Shimano Premium Grease? according to its SDS, it contains ZDDP, a corrosion inhibitor that seems unwanted here. it is “toxic to aquatic life with long lasting effects” (H411). still don't know how it's thickened.

if we knew more about these expensive products, we could look for equivalents. thus, selling repackaged grease almost necessarily combines high prices with incomplete information. not being able to determine compatibility isn't terrible in this context, but i feel disrespected.

Mercedes-Benz Hochtemperatur-Wälzlagerfette contains Li-Komplexseifenfette (lithium) and Zinksalze. this additive has a different CAS number than Shimano's (85940-28-9 vs. 4259-15-8), but it's also toxic (H411). i (still) like this bearing grease, because it is harder than PWG, not as dark (yellow-green), and packaged just as neatly. it costs less than PWG, its tube is larger, and i know what it is!

tubs of grease cost much less, and it should be easy to find one that isn't so toxic. maybe i should buy a boat :-)

smd4

Why not? Are you suggesting cheap grease for expensive bikes? It's some of the best bike grease I've ever used. I won't use anything else. Yeah, I don't buy my grease based on its toxicity to aquatic life. In fact, I couldn't care less. But I do my part by not riding my bike in rivers, lakes or oceans.

altenwrencher

My tub of "Campagnolo Special Grease (Anti rust grease for balls and rollers movement)" from the late 1970s is still creamy and smooth with no oil separation. Lubriplate 630-AA, NLGI 1 has also held up well all those years. I also use Castrol Multi-Purpose Wheel Bearing Grease, NLGI 2. I still have some Phil Wood waterproof grease in a green squeeze tube. All are more than 40 years old and all fully reliable.

One thing is to keep the grease free of dirt or grit. Put a tab made of duct tape on the tub's cap - or screw the cap on and off. I keep my fingers out of the grease and use a plastic red tube from a spray can as a paddle to pull out the amount I want and put it precisely where it is needed.

cossor

i implicitly recommended Mercedes-Benz wheel bearing grease. i did not suggest using cheap grease.

some of us hope used grease decomposes gracefully at our dumping grounds. some couldn't care less. whatever works for you :-)

Duragrouch

CRC Sta-Lube Water Resistant Marine Grease (product code SL3125), opaque aqua green like a 1960s vinyl couch, as recommended by Aaron's that services IGHs, hubs, and BBs for Seattle winter weather, is not terribly expensive and seems to meet the same durability specs. I found it cheaper at an RV supply shop. I wouldn't think a biocide is necessary on bikes, though perhaps boat trailers that go in the water and might not get all the water out before storage, it might help. Zinc I think is a biocide. I have a circa 1989 tube of Phil Wood grease, still some left but it seems thicker than at one time, I could be wrong, but I use the Sta-Lube which was 14 oz for $7.49, and before that STP high temp wheel bearing grease, it's just what was available at my nearest auto parts store, 4 lbs for $9.99. That's a huge discount (78%) versus the much smaller tub of the Sta-Lube, but it's not just price multiple but actual price difference, which is pennies per lube job, and that 14 oz tub should last me the rest of my life. I'll use the STP for auto stuff and other general lube.

cossor

something like that in a tube is what i wanted. if Aaron had this packaged in China, shipped here as cheaply as possible ... unfortunately, no such product exists.

Mercedes-Benz packages its wheel bearing grease in 150g tubes, enough for two wheels according to their instructions. some people use one tube per wheel.

Shimano offers similar usage advice, so using a lot and letting the excess squeeze out might be poor technique. on the other hand, Mercedes-Benz and Shimano greases are significantly harder than Phil Waterproof Grease. optimal technique might depend on the grease.

in short, grease is complicated. i think harder ones are easier to use, like the idea of using less, and prefer less toxic products.

Duragrouch

In small tube, or large grease-gun tube? I see the CRC Sta-Lube on amazon in the large tubes. You can also put greases in large syringes if it doesn't eat at the plastic or rubber. For bike stuff, I dispense mine out of a small jar (that I fill from the tub) with wooden coffee stirring paddles (like skinny popsicle sticks), the small jar fits in my bike tool tacklebox as easily as a small disposable tube, but if you are putting in grease via zerk fittings, you need the larger tubes.

cossor

in my mind, grease gun cartridges are not tubes in spite of their shape. tubs of grease also tend to be too large, and i have an inexplicable phobia of contaminating grease packaged this way.

having bicycle parts scattered throughout my apartment is ok; owning too much grease is not.