zelah

its cool to be vegan and all, but what do you do when the alternative to animal skin is ultra pollutant chemicals that will never break down?

El-ahrairah

Accept that on the scale of things that pollution from making your seat is saving much more from going into the air as car exhaust, and that happily it will never break down and your ass will sit on it your whole life and you wont have to maintain it constantly like an overpriced crooks

time bandit

i like nylon straps. call me crazy, but i ride in a lot of stupid ***** that kills leather/fakeleather so much faster. i guess its just a preference, such as me liking single straps. (and pulling them tight every time i ride.)

zelah

all the leather saddles i'll buy in my life time will never add up to the destruction caused by people who eat meat

the destruction of someone hunting for their own food is infinitesimal compared to a veg/vegan diet in a "civilized"/modern setting.

my synthetic fizik is ripping at the edges from being scraped against walls and streets

time bandit

and?

kidtwisty

well gee,
i just came here to suggest dental floss...

zelah

and i'm leaning towards a leather saddle for durability and classic asthetic

destruction of animals sucks and destruction of the environment sucks

both of these are in such small doses that they won't "matter". but that goes both ways, why should veganism be a moral high ground

time bandit

i think people should just realize that humans are a disease put on this earth for a purpose, which in my mind is not much more than a parasite sucking the blood(oil) from the earths body and scabbing it over(buildings, roads, etc) with such products, therefore, by using synthetics aren't we taking more from mother earth than the offerings she gives us in "lesser beings"? get real folks. humans are the ****. we are here to destroy ****, and we're goddamned good at it. can i get an amen?

El-ahrairah

no **** you

zelah

amen

time bandit

zelah

getout

time bandit

kidtwisty

thread over.

el twe

If only it were that simple.

kidtwisty

but it is, really.
while veganism may be decent, environmentally-wise, it really doesn't stand ground morally.

As a good friend points out, just thinking about all those migrant workers who are put into harder and longer labor for increasingly unfair wages to produce those oh so precious "organic" fr00tz and veggietables these people have such a demand for truly outweighs the harm to animals vegans attempt to avoid through mere dairy products, etc. It also shows a general lack of necessary consideration and compassion for the human scale, which although is getting out of hand, should always take precedence over teh animalz, no matter how "sick" you find your own species to be and how bull****tedly disgusted you are with your own country.

i can understand vegetarians, vegans not so much.
and while this complete statement may be a complete joke, it should cause 1 in 39 people to think for a little bit.

el twe

Hey, all I was saying was "if only saying 'thread over.' would end a thread."

kidtwisty

haha yeah jaykayz

time bandit

lol, pass me a brew.

TimArchy

Making synthetics doesn't require the death of animals. It is a system that can be made better. The same cannot be said for leather. And if you think producing leather doesn't cause pollution, I suggest you read up on the tanning process.

I don't eat meat and I don't use animal products if I can avoid it (it is surprising how difficult our modern world makes this). I realized a long time ago that the only reason that the majority of us eat meat is because we enjoy the taste ( most of us can get all the nutrients we need from non-animal sources). So, for those who don't have a medical condition or live in an environment where there is no other food source, we kill animals for nothing more than culinary enjoyment. To me, someone eating meat is no better than someone hunting for enjoyment or a kid torturing squirrels for fun in the back yard. It is simply more socially acceptable and we weren't raised to think it was wrong.

And if you think the "torturing the squirrel" bit was not a good analogy to industrial slaughter, you should really go visit a slaughterhouse.

sorry...been saving that angst up for a while.

zelah

man but thats the thing. torture and sport hunting are wrong, but killing an animal to eat him isn't inherently wrong. the environmental impact from going out and killing a rabbit to clean, cook, and prepare the hide if i'm feeling sassy is WAY less than if i bought a pack of boca burgers. yes. one animal lost their life, but it still cuts out the environmental cluster **** that is agriculture. 99% of water used on earth is by either industry or agriculture. we're putting so many chemicals into the ground that within 50 years there's a real possibility earth worms could be extinct. thats some next-level scary no-plants-growing **** that i don't like to think about, but it is possible. so 1 dead rabbit is 1 dead rabbit instead of a little piece of the pie that is the agriculture and processing and packaging and shipping of what is basically trying to meat that makes us feel like we're better than people who just eat actual meat.

yes i know factory farming is horrible

yes i know 99.99% of people living in civilization don't know how to catch their own food, are physically unable, or are not living in a location suited for hunting and gathering.

there is no attainable "right" answer for the majority, or even the minority to reach without a groundbreaking change in the fundamental way society works.

i just want my bike to look good

doofo

well said

very well said

i knew i loved tim for a reason

edit: and tehz i have a feeling you will feel better with a synthetic saddle

if nothing else than because it is consistent

andrewssohip

factory farming is awful, but those people at least have the possibility for organizing and for complaining for better conditions. The animals can't consent to doing the work they are forced to do. As well, this work is completely unnecessary. Morally, Veganism makes perfect sense if you believe that all animals have a right to life and self-determination. Improving the conditions of farm workers can be done parallel to the dismantling of Agribusiness factory farms. These are not mutually exclusive as you attempt to make them. Also, milk and dairy support the meat industry. So even if you're a vegetarian you are not reducing your environmental impact as a vegan. I don't want people or animals being turned into objects, which is exactly what the systems that dominate modern architecture do. Workers are reduced to labor, and cows to "heads of cattle".

barba

Apparently there were no earthworms in the New World prior to European colonization. Weird. I am more worried about the bees.

I was born a vegetarian, so it is not a choice that I think much about on the average day, but using leather has never been much if an issue for me. If people are going to eat all those cows, I don't object to using the skin for something useful. I would happily give up leather if people would stop eating all of those cows, however. Meat is a wasteful use of resources (the calories in to calories out ratio is really bad) and large scale livestock operations are a major pollutant.

zelah

re: bees, don't worry, we'll replace them with tiny robotic crop dusters, its chill.