merlinextraligh

I completely understand, and you made what appears to be a good choice for you, based upon what you want in your bike.

The Op's question as originally phrased implies that the opposite choice, i.e. to buy the light, stiff, hi tech production bike could never be valid, because you could do better custom. And my point is depending on what you value,and your intended use, there can be reasons to buy the production bike.

blacksquid

Yeah, I could never agree with that statement.

DrPete 

+1.

Every time these frame material/production vs. custom/etc. threads come up, folks seem to think that there's always one best choice in a bike for everyone. Prices are what they are, and either the market will bear it or not. To me, spending $2K on a frame that was super stiff/light/fast was important to me. I couldn't care less about whether there are fancy swirly lugs on the frame. Some folks dig the fancy lugs etc. Most people don't need custom geometry.

Everything you buy will have pros and cons. Just decide for yourself what's important and how much it's worth to you, and go forth. This is not brain surgery.

merlinextraligh

Not even general surgery

DrPete 

blacksquid

Hmm, I always lost at that damn game!

slowandsteady

Anybody with a HS welding class could build a steel bike frame. It really isn't that special. Frankly it is obscene that they charge $2-3k for a steel frame.

Is there really a difference between these two(other than material?



https://www.nashbar.com/profile_morei...ku=6064&brand=

merlinextraligh

Other than ride quality, durability, finish quality, weight, resale value, warranty support, and penache, not really.

Ride a Waterford built bike and report back.

DrPete 

I would love to see one of the low-end manufacturers do the Pepsi Challenge, i.e. take a Waterford/Sachs/whatever, strip the paint/decals off, and have a taiwan-built factory bike made from the same tubing. Each rider would do 20 miles on each bike and say which one they liked better.

I'm sure it would be an eye opener. There are so many biases built in to purchasing a bike it's hilarious. And no, I'm not claiming to be above it.

iab

Most of being a good welder is experience, whether you are welding steel, aluminun or titanium. You don't need a college degree for laying-up carbon fiber either. Every material has a price range, i.e. cheap carbon to expensive carbon, I think it is pretty pointless to be offended by the price of one material over another.

merlinextraligh

Part of the problem with that comparison though is I don't believe you can do the factory built bike with the same tubing. Back in the day when Schwinn built Paramounts by hand in Waterford Wisconsin, and built Paramount Design Group bikes with the same geometry in Taiwan, the Waterford bike was silver braised, and had thinner tubing. The Taiwanese bike had heavier thicker tubing, in part because the higher temperatures used in the machine assembly process wouldn't have worked with the thinner, lighter tubing.

I would imagine that even with today's high end steels, a skilled welder can do things with materials that are not practical to use in a machine building operation.

terry b

Why buy a top end bike in a store instead of custom - four basic reasons.

Many people want a test ride before they're willing to buy.

Many people don't want to wait.

Many people are afraid of answering the questions.

Most people have not done the pricing research and discovered that custom is very price effective compared to the top end offerings of the Big 3. And judging from the hash being slung around here, this might be the #1 reason. My custom Moots with DA cost a little more than 5Gs, not the greater than $7000 quoted above. A custom Calfee can be done for less than $6000 which compares pretty favorably to the $7200 Specialized I saw in an LBS last week. I think there is a very basic perception that a custom bike is a $8000+ proposition and that is simply not true. There are dozens of builders out there getting $1200 or less for a custom steel frame. Add $500 for wheels, $500 for parts and $1500 for the group and what do you have - a sub $4000 bike made completely to your specifications. And that's even a bit on the high side if you shop judiciously.

You do custom because you need it or because you want something different. Very simple.

slowandsteady

Ride a Nashbar frame and report back. Come on people it is a bunch of steel tubes welded or most likely brazed together with lugs. There is nothing artistic or special about it. You are being gouged. I will concede that the waterford has a better ride quality than a nashbar frame. But it is really $2400 better? Is it better than Joe Schmoe who builds one in his garage over the weekend using the same geometry, tubes and lugs for tons less? Now that would be the test.


Well here is the price list.

https://www.henryjames.com/price07.pdf

ken cummings

I have a non-custom bike but as it was buillt in a little one-man shop in Petaluma, California I get treated like it was custom. Far stronger cyclists then I come over to admire it and ask questions. Last week while hill-climbing I met a man who had a genuine custom bike. He liked mine and wished he could afford one.

slowandsteady

Apples and oranges. A full CF bike is not the same as a full steel bike. It is crazy to think that you can compare them. With a little training I could probably build a steel lugged frame in my spare time. I can pretty much guarantee I cannot build a monocoque CF frame in my spare time without A LOT of training and special equipment.

DrPete 

While it seems mysterious to us mere mortals, there doesn't seem to be anything too magical about CF to those in the know. I'm sure some hard-core engineer geek could make a monocoque CF frame in his/her garage too, but that's just a guess. Problem is that you need to make a new mold for every change in geometry...

terry b

I don't think I was talking about what it takes to build them, I think I was talking about why people steer away from custom. In terms of the old steel vs. CF red herring, I'm perfectly happy on either material, and I own several of each. You can compare them across all kinds of riders and you're going to find all kinds of opinions on each, both positive and negative. Personally, I'd take that $4000 custom steel bike over any CF bike I've seen in a bike store. Because bike store bikes always represent some compromise for me and a custom bike never does. For that kind of money, I don't want to compromise. But that's just my opinion.

And oh, by the way - there are plenty of good stories on the net about regular people gluing together that lugged Deda kit and thus building their own CF bike. Not monocoque, but then how many CF bikes are?

pathdoc

I think wait time is the biggest difference. Even the not so busy custom builders have a one year wait. After one year your needs and desires may change. Just a thought.

terry b

Last three custom bikes I commissioned were 8, 12 and 18 weeks. And those are Moots, Strong and Crumpton.

pathdoc

Those are some great turnaround times. Wish I had a similiar experience.

terry b

I empathize having just been there myself.

slowandsteady

You made my point. Yes, some hard core engineer geek could do it. But could I?....nope.

Siu Blue Wind

You impress me, slowandsteady. I wish I could build a bike. I had to go custom because I have a bulging disk in my back and need to have a more upright position in able to ride road. Because I ended up having to order custom I have to wait 12 weeks.

I wish I didn't have to spend the money or the time on this bike but it's what I need to do if I ever want to do road.

You know anything about building ti?

merlinextraligh

Well I own a Waterford built bike, and I've ridden a number of piece of crap aluminum bikes (mostly rentals on various occassions) and there is a substantial difference in ride quality, handling, and weight. Not to mention finish quality and aesthetics. Now is it a $2000 difference? That's totally a value question, that no one can answer but themselves.

slowandsteady

I can also read a recipe out of a cookbook and end up with a nice birthday cake.

It isn't that impressive. I can change my oil, muffler, starter, alternator, etc... build a lean-to, do minor plumbing and electrical work as well as some carpentry. I don't see how brazing a few lugs and cutting a few tubes is so magical. I am not claiming to be able to weld Ti or even steel. But lugs are a no brainer. Perhaps that is why so many builders opt for that method.

It isn't even like I have to calculate new angles or anything. It has all been done before. I can just copy the specs from Vanilla, Waterford, or where ever and build my own for a couple hundred bucks.