maunakea

I spent some time today testing 2005 Dahons to collect more points of reference for my next bike. All bikes had essentially no miles on them. On some, the tires had not seen pavement. Seatpost was at max extension on every bike. So today I rode:

Vitesse D5. The SA 5 speed hub clearly needed attention. Would not downshift without backpedalling. Upshifts had a lag. Disappointed with the hub. I like my wife's Boardwalk D6 much better, even though the Vitesse has an Alu frame. Tallest gear wasn't tall enough. Lowest gear wasn't low enough.

Speed D7. Felt exactly like a Boardwalk D6 with an extra cog. The mech had a very short cage and was branded Dahon. I didn't notice any better shifting but I liked the better ground clearance of the mech. Not impressed with the "Dahon Roulez" tires. With only 65 psi, the ride should have been softer.

Speed P8. The ride was noticeably better than the Speed D7. The Schwalbe Big Apples, even though 2", even seemed to accelerate and corner better than the 1.5" on the D7. Overall, the bike felt tighter and more responsive than the D7. The upgraded components made the bike fun, but P8 to Helios difference was even more noticeable than the D7 to P8.

Helios P8. I thought... same premium components package as the Speed P8 except the tires are S. Marathon Racer. Won't be that different. Was I wrong. I'm 6'2", 190 lb., 35" arms, 33" inseam. The bikes above were cramped. The Helios was not. It came the closest to a 700c road bike feel. It was the only 20" bike I tested today that I could get out of the saddle and mash and not fight "tuck under" from the front wheel. Almost as stable out of the saddle as my DT FS, but the FS has end horns on the handlebar, so that may color my impression. The only mishap of the day occurred on the Helios.... the chain bounced off the chain ring when I hit a small bump when on the smallest cog. Fortunately, I avoided a spill. No chain guard on the left side of the chain ring.

Mariner 26. The 26" wheels completely eliminate tuck under, of course, but what I felt most was the drop in component quality vs the Helios. The SRAM 3.0/SX4 components on the Helios shifted much better than the Shimano TX components on the Mariner (leaving the Suntour front mech out of the analysis). The Helios was a blast to ride. The Mariner felt like a Motiv.

I was ready to ride an Allegro when I pointed out that the front coupler of the rear brake cable connector was missing... nothing but a frayed cable end. And no rear brake function. The shop said they would fix it and call me. I've never seen a missing coupler. I have them on my S&S coupled road bike, and know that the set screws have to be torqued to spec. Bad QC. Made me want to wait for the Fuego before deciding on my next bike.


Overall, the Helios was the most fun and memorable, both the good (the handling and comfortable position) and bad (losing the chain on a SMALL bump).

Simple Simon

Great report ! surprising results - makes this forum fun & interestimng. Good to find a shop that would a) keep such a wide stock of dahon bikes & b) let you try them....... thanks

Dahon.Steve

Hub gear bicycles are ALWAYS going to feel more slugglish and slower than any derailluer bicycle. It's the nature of the beast which is why this type of bicycle is ONLY purchased for commuters who cycle in mud, rain and snow. Since you are purchasing a bicycle for purposes other than commuting, you would be wise to choose one with a derailuer.

Every year we have someone post "Why do we need derailuers when hub gears are fine" on this board. I think your post pretty much cleared the air.

spambait11

How long and how far on each bike?

Bacciagalupe

Ahh, the eternal optimist...

I'm a bit surprised the Helios came out on top -- tho' I'm curious how well it would hold up on a longer ride (30+ miles)....

maunakea

@spambait11 I rode each bike about a mile, city streets, flat terrain. I did about a 50 m. sprint to top speed with each bike, the limits being intersections, then some cornering in parking lots, then some potholes in a different parking lot. About 5 minutes each with the less comfortable bikes and a little more with the more comfortable bikes. I missed having FS in the pothole test.

spambait11

Wow. Kudos to the shop that will let you try that many bikes, esp. folding ones!

maunakea

I was lucky ... it was a slow afternoon at the RBS (remote bike shop ... about 20 miles away). Five test rides, and the Allegro would have been 6. The shop put a standard brake cable on the Allegro ... didn't have a coupler, and called to say it was ready to ride.

Dahon.Steve

Alright... you got me on the optimist part. I'll try to be more positive.. ;-)

On a separate issue, I've seen the Helios at a local bike shop and Dahon upgraded the whole bicycle. It now looks VERY similar to the Speed pro. I was amazed at how the Helios changed over the past year.

Wavshrdr

I think the internal hubs are much better than they used to be. I haven’t heard ANYONE complain about the SpeedPro being sluggish and it runs through an internal hub in addition to its derailleur. I can say the Nexus red label I have is definitely better than the older Nexi I have. It doesn’t feel mush or inefficient at all. In real world testing there isn’t a huge difference between the last generation of hubs vs. derailleurs and the current generation I think would surprise a lot of people.

If more people demanded high performance internal hubs I think you would see the gap narrow even more. The more I travel with the bike the more I appreciate the internal hub. I wish Dahon had it on more of their bikes. If I can ever find a good used one I will retrofit it to my kid’s Boardwalk.

Ride a Rohloff and you won’t see a hub that feels inefficient either. Of course the hubs cost more than an average Dahon but the point is the technology is there we just need economy of scale to bring the cost down.

I don’t know about where you live but I have snow, rain, mud, dirt and grass to deal with. One of the biggest reasons I don’t ride my Dahons as much is because of the low hanging derailleur likes to collect a lot of grass and weeds if you even do moderate off-roading (anything other than a dirt path).

I don’t know what was up with the SA 5spd you road. It definitely isn’t one of their best hubs and if you want gears might as well have more of them. There is a reason why Brompton dropped it from their lineup. The SA 3spd is a much better hub. I have it one of my bikes and while the range is limited the actual action has been flawless. No problem with shifts up or down and even under loads that a derailleur definitely wouldn’t want to shift under.

Best shifting internal hub I’ve ridden is the 8spd Nexus red label. Try a bike with one of those (not the 8spd Dahon bolts on their bikes) and you will be surprised.

Anyway good report on the bikes. The lack of QC though really concerns me though. If the bikes are on the showroom floor the dealer should’ve had them ready to go. It sounds like the “passed” Dahon’s QC and they weren’t caught at the dealer level.

LWaB

The reason is that Sturmey stopped making them when it went bust and it took quite a while for Sunrace to start production. Brompton have a limited choice of hubs because the majority are too wide to fit into the rear triangle. Even the 5sp was a special narrow version, just for Brompton. Don't try to rewrite history please.

Wavshrdr

Not trying to re-write history BUT read the Brompton lists and more people have issues with the 5 spd than the 3 spd by a WIDE margin. I rode several bikes with the 5spd and the 3spd shifted much better. Neither of them are as smooth or nice as the 8spd Nexus or the higher end SRAMs either.

DaFriMon

Not exactly disagreeing with you, but the SA X-RF5 hub on my Twenty has been working quite well. Knock wood, still not quite 200 miles total. I had to re-adjust it once after about 50 miles, but I attributed that to new cable stretch. I'm willing to believe that the 3 speed might be more reliable in the long run, and I'm sure that the higher end hubs you mention are in a whole different class, but so far, I'm satisfied with what I've got. There have been a lot of complaints on the Dahon forum about axle slippage on the Vitesse D5, but I doubt if it's the hub itself that's causing this.

The hub I've got is the new Taiwanese Sturmey Archer. I suspect that the 5 speeds on the Bromptons were an older version. I have heard that some of the older 5 speeds had major problems.

maunakea

well ... maybe not as much of a surprise ending as in Lucky Slevin ... but I rode the Allegro today. It was a 58 cm, and I normally take a 60, but it had the longest stock seatpost I've even seen on a road bike (maybe 400 mm) and a 120 mm stem, so the fit was fairly good. It rode beautifully, like the Ritchey steel frame, Shimano 105/Ultergra class bike that it is ... too beautifully, in fact. It is not rugged enough, or foldy enough, for the riding profile it has to meet ... which is a mixture of city streets, rural pavement, and forest service graded roads ... on and off trains in Japan. My Kanto area bike has been an 1994 REI Novara Randonee, which I can rig as a full tourer (ironically, made in Japan but bought from REI, then taken to Tokyo). The Randonee is now in the Kansai area, thus the need for a new bike for Kanto... this time a folder so that bagging and unbagging for trains isn't such a major production.

The Allegro felt exactly like a mid-range, century frame, steel bike. Not a Pinarello or Bianchi high end frame, but I still loved it. I love steel frame roadies. No sign whatsoever of flex in the Allegro frame (unloaded). As much as I loved it, I realized it was wrong for the riding profile I needed. The Allegro is a single purpose bike: performance on pavement. Adjusting the seat post height involves dealing with two Allen bolts that also serve to couple the top tube and seat tube. Find your multitool and separate and rejoin is way too much work for "fold" and "unfold" even once a day.

So... the surprise ending. Without having riden one, because there isn't one to ride anywhere near me, I bought a Dahon Cadenza from Amazon. $499, free shipping. The result of the process of elimination. I'll keep you posted once it arrives. (The shops where I tested the bikes couldn't match the deal from The Am.)

BruceMetras

Mighty Maunakea! Nice choice! Looking forward to your review! When's delivery?

Bruce

maunakea

From The Am
Shipping estimate for this item: May 15, 2006 - May 30, 2006
Delivery estimate: May 17, 2006 - June 2, 2006

My bet is that The Am is now a Dahon dealer and the bike is sourced directly from Dahon USA. Free shipping means it's not a partner sale. I still can't get over free shipping. A shop here (HNL) quoted $75 shipping to $125 ((boat vs. air) if I wanted to order a 60 cm Allegro and did not want to wait for the next container to arrive from the mainland. Plus 4.166 tax, plus bike license fee (even though the bike is going to Japan). None of which extras I pay with The Am, and far cheaper in the States than in Japan. The Cadenza will ship by air from The Am, so the price delta was around $175 on a $500 bike.

A Nashbar bike bag, QR seatpost rack, handlebar bag, and it's onsen hopping time.

spambait11

I've always liked Ritchey's Break Away concept, so thanks for the report on the Allegro. Too bad it seems so cumbersome to fold/breakdown. But I like that it is a steel frame.

bookishboy

maunakea, I read somewhere that Japan requires all bicycle owners to register their vehicles with the police.

-Is this strictly enforced?

-Is there a penalty if you get caught or pulled over on an unregistered bike?

-Does it cost money, like getting a car registration here in the States?

-Does the requirement extend to noncitizen residents or tourists?

Congrats on finding the bike that you wanted.

maunakea

@spambait I hope I made the right choice. If not, I think the Cadenza can quickly find a new home. One on eBay recently went for $450 to a local sale. I emailed the seller asking why the listing ended early.

@bookishboy I've had bikes in Japan (I bike&train to client sites during the week, bike tour on weekends) for over ten years, never had a sticker, and never had an enforcement issue. I'm there 4x/yr. The main purpose of the sticker is to reclaim the bike after a sweep of illegally parked bikes near trains stations. The usual "my bike was swept" scenario is "late for the train, park the bike illegally, rush into the train station, bike gets swept". I'm careful not to lock the bike near train stations or other likely sweep points. Also, I cable lock to a fixture (60 cm frames are rare as hen's teeth in Japan, which is good and bad... it's not a hot size to steal, but it also can't be quickly replaced). Also, there are too many bikes blocking suitable fixtures in the usual sweep points.

Japan ranks as the best cycling country in the world, IME. Everyone grew up with a bike, all but sarariman still ride them, so most drivers understand cyclists (the exceptions are truckers wigged on speed... not unique to Japan). The riding terrain outside the cities is phenomenal, i.e., seriously hilly and mountainous, but all roads are paved except in some areas of national parks. Lodgings and food are cheap in rural areas (I usually pay about $35~$40/night in rural areas for a minshuku, a B&B), but I've seen only a handful of other bike tourers in ten years. Oh ... it greatly helps to be fluent and literate in Japanese. Many Japanese innkeepers won't deal with foreigners... in part, they are afraid that in an emergency they won't be able to communicate. I always start the "do you have a room" dialog with a comment about a current news topic. Sometimes, after I have the room key in hand, the converation ends with the proprietor saying "It's too bad we couldn't have a conversation." I always reply, "Yes, it's too bad. We can have one when you visit Hawaii." Just as much a non sequitur as their comment.

rdh

Do you take the bike into the onsen with you? I hope your physique does not give a bad reputation to the rest of us gaijin (foreigners).

For those of you who are unfamiliar with this particular Japanese custom, onsen are the marvelous hot communal mineral baths where clothing is forbidden. In addition, most Japanese baths will refuse entry to anyone with tattoos. Tattoos are a "badge" of Japanese gangsters or yakusa.

maunakea

@rdh I even cable lock my bike at onsens. Drunk people do dumb things, and onsens have their share of drunks, since to some male city dwellers in Japan, onsen = holiday = drunk.

There's nothing like doing 50 miles/day in the mountains, and ending each day at the coast with a huge minshuku dinner (the evening meal is included in the lodging price, and is often multicourse and well prepared, esp. at seaside minshuku, ... mouth is watering... must stop thinking about sashimi and koshihikari gohan) with a soak in the waters before and after dinner. There's is so much philosophical debate about whether to soak before or after dinner that I side with both camps.

rdh

I like your attitude. When I was in Japan, I felt like I was eating continuously, yet never gained a pound.

maunakea

Update: a positive review (other than getting the rear wheeal rebuilt at Dahon's expense) of the 2006 Cadenza is on the UK Folding Society site, click on Test Reports. https://www.foldsoc.co.uk/

I think I would have changed the cassette before changing the chain rings.

spambait11

maunakea: I think you got Dahon's best overall 26" wheel bike. Looking forward to your reviews as well.

But a question: from the pics, it looks as if you can't fold the bike compactly unless you remove the stem because it looks like the handlebars will hit the seat. The stem doesn't have a quick-release, does it? Or are you required to unscrew it every time?

maunakea

sb I'm flying blind here ... I've never actually seen a Cadenza for real, just specs and pictures. I was glad to learn from the UK review that it will fit in an El Bolso. I can see from the closeup of the stem riser on the Dahon site that the stock stem is not QR .... but I already have two seat collar QRs ready to put in the stem collar. Whipping out a hex key every time I bag or unbag the bike will not work.

Thor or wpflem, can you answer spambait's question?