Eggplant Jeff

So I'm planning on getting a job down town, which means the best bet is ride to work, fold up the bike, and carry it to my office. Or worry about thieves. So I'm looking at folders.

Brompton seems like pretty much the smallest folded package out there. And they claim 15-second fold times (of course, so do many of the others). However I don't see a lot of comments in this forum from those who have them?

Is it just the price? Or is there another reason to avoid them?

Next up would appear to be a Dahon. I've seen several posts on here saying complimentary things about their ride quality. However from their web site it doesn't look like they fold as small as the Brompton, plus I didn't see a component setup that I liked (maybe you can customize 'em at the store?). For example, I do NOT want a suspension seatpost... odds are I'll be running a Brooks B67 which is a sprung saddle anyway. But a lot of models came with the suspension seatpost. Whereas I DO want a rack and fenders (although I can skip the lights, I can buy better lights as standalone components than I've ever seen available OEM).

And a totally different question... Anyone use clipless pedals on their folder? I realize this would mean giving up the folding pedals, but my main concern is picking it up not fitting it into a particular suitcase or something. And I really like my current pedals which are SPD one side platform the other.

pharnabazos

Beware Dahon models which come with the proprietary I-Beam seatpost, like the Speed series. You won't be able to use standard rail saddles without replacing the seatpost first. It's 34mm.


Yes--it was no problem folding or going into a building, but for suitcases it's more of a hassle. I removed the pedals for travel.

AWOL

out of the 33 models listed in the 06 dahon catolog only 5 have suspension seatposts.

i reckon a speed tr with a new seatpost would be perfect, racks, fenders etc. good gear range, great quality and geometry.

trouble with folding pedals is quality. i have the mks ones on my jetstream... so-so.

as for folded size... i wouldnt worry too much. sure bromptons are smaller but not that much so

wpflem

For your descirbed need, it's hard to best a Brompton in my opinion. One day my wife rode her bike to school and put it under her desk. When her 1st graders saw it, they exclaimed, "Hey, you brought your wheelchair in today!" Brompton should also hold it's value well for resale.

I will also tell you that Bromptons are real bargains compared to other England made bikes that I've been involved with . Try shipping in a Moulton or a Pashley, the shipping adds tremendously to the sale price. Brompton somehow ships in for peanuts, I don't know how they do it. Dahon ships in by the boatload, so transport does not figure that much in their price.

Mr_Super_Socks

Clipless is definitely the way to go. My experience with carrying a folded bike into an office (I have done it with a Speed TR, downtube and my bike friday) is that weight is your absolute #1 priority, followed closely by easy foldability. Bike friday doesn't pass the quick fold test, but the others have been fine. But my Speed TR and downtube are both a bit too heavy to do it comfortably (though it's totally do-able). I don't know what a Brompton weighs, but the compact fold is appealing. If I had to get the bike into the office, up and down stairs, etc. I'd look at the Dahon presto lite or one of their other really lightweight models.

Also - a tote bag is crucial to keeping the process of bringing a crudded up bike into an office somewhat civilized.

AWOL

I use a Dahon El Bolso for protection and ease of transport. Worth a look.

Wavshrdr

While Bromptons may be small, they aren't super light. Typically they range from about 22-25lbs. You can definitely get Dahons under this as well as a Swift/Xootr. The Brompton's real claim to fame is the very compact fold. However they have smaller wheels than the 20" Dahon, they typically cost more and their gear range tends to be limited. If you travel typically only in a city with few hills then they may be ideal.

Of all my bikes I think the fastest fold is truly the Swift (aka Xootr) although it is not the most compact fold. Basic fold can truly be done in about 5-10 seconds practice. Next would be the Dahons. I have tried the Bromptons quite a bit in the shops and they have lots of twiddly bits you must unscrew to drop the handlebars and fold the frame. The Dahons have a quick release type mechanism that is more like a vise-grip locking pliers.

A Brompton is one of the few folders I don't seem to have at the moment and I don't know if I will add one anytime soon as they aren't exactly a great value (to me). So I end up buying something else when considering adding another folder. Maybe someday I'll buy one but so far the test rides haven't won me over yet. I appreciate their engineering but then again I appreciate a Birdy as well and they seem to ride better and fold compactly (but not Brompton small). You also might want to check out a Birdy while you are at it.

As for clipless pedals, while it you can't really get a clipless folding pedal (at least that I've seen yet), MKS does make a quick release (QR) clipless pedal. The advantage of this is you can use the other MKS QR pedals in the same mounting system and choose which you want to use that day. The cleat would go into a SPD type recessed cleat shoe. So you could easily walk on them in a store without too much difficulty. I have seen these in person and I am torn between buying a set of these or Speedplay Frogs for another bike. I already have several pairs of the normal MKS QR pedals and like them alot but I plan on buying a set to use on my folder and recumbent.

Something that may factor into your decision is your physical size. I am a big guy and I feel the most comfortable on my Bike Friday and Swift, next the Dahon and others. I did feel pretty scrunched on the Brompton but the model with the flat bars was most comfortable of the range. The funky "P" series I think wasn't bad but I don't think I could live with the style of the bars although they might be very versatile. you also didn't specify price range and that obviously has a huge impact on what you want to shop. The cheapest Brompton is over the mid-price range of the Dahons. They all seem to have their niche and it is sometimes difficult to decide what is best. If the ultimate compact fold is your main buying point then the nod would probably have to go to the Brompton.

juan162

If you can, try to get a test ride on the bikes you are considering. Views and preferences can change when you are upclose and personal. As far as pedals go, I can only agree with everyone else, in that you can use just about any pedal you would favor. Again, if smallest fold is most important, you might want the MKS detachables. Just know that while they are similar to SPD's, they are MKS's own design(which is no problem since they come with the cleats. Replacement cleats might be an issue though). You can find out more about them if you look for the MKS Clipless thread on this forum.
juan162

Eggplant Jeff

Thanks for the input so far. I'm hoping to get to a bike store this weekend that has a bunch of folders, bromptons and dahons and others, so I can try 'em out.

Regarding Dahon's "33" bikes... 16 are listed as "Commuter" or "City" (many are listed in both categories actually). Of those, 10 do not come with a rack or fenders, of the remaining 6, 1 is electric , 2 have the wierd custom seat rail thing, and one has a suspension seat post. This is based on their 2005 lineup, I saw a 2006 catalog and it looked like a lot more bikes had suspension seatposts, but I can't find the PDF I downloaded right now so I can't confirm that.

The two that are left are the Piccolo D3 and the Mariner D7. The piccolo D3 doesn't seem to have a whole lot to distinguish itself from the bromptons, it's a 3-speed hub, 16" wheels, and weighs 25.5 lbs. The Mariner D7 has the 20" wheels but is a much larger package folded and still weighs 26 lbs.

It seems like the main difference in weight is things like no rack and/or no fenders, that wacky I-beam seatpost, stuff like that.

balto charlie

Hey Egg I'm in the same boat as you. Folding size is important as I ride the MARC but also need a lot of gears for my hills near home. I think I ruled out the Brompton due to gearing and small tires; however they fold the best which is important when riding mass trans. If you don't ride mass trans then size is not as crucial. If you live in a flat area then gearing is not as important. Unfortunately I have both needs. I'm leaning towards a Dahon with 8 speed internal gearing. I have to wait until I find out about the future of my train station. When this is resolved I will purchase something. College Park bikes and Mt Airy(same group, diff locaton) rent some folders for $30ish. Might be a nice thing to try. See if it's for you. Charlie

Wavshrdr

The cool thing about the Dahons is they are easy to customize. So even if they don't come with rack and fenders they are easy and cheap to add. I even have 2 of the multi-geared Boardwalks (Dahons) and even for a base bike they aren't bad. They are pretty light weight even with fenders and racks.

BTW- the Dahon that has the suspension seatpost is a great bike. The suspension seatpost (Thudbuster) is absolutely awesome and is very tunable for rider weight and style. I have actually ended up buying several of these for my other bikes after putting one on one of my Dahons. It truly transformed my ride. If you try one after taking the time to dial it in you will see exactly what I mean. I run one with my Brooks as well but it isn't sprung. Keep in mind that you can adjust it to work well even with a sprung saddle. The Brooks is good for the little hits but you could setup the Thudbuster to take care of the big pot hole but not move until then. If you decided to buy a Dahon with the Thudbuster and later don't want it, drop me a line and I'll be glad to buy it from you. I can understand not wanting a suspended seatpost since you have the Brooks but trust me after using the Thudbuster you will see it is in a totally different class.

Here is a link to a pic of my Brooks mounted with a Thudbuster on my Swift.

Pic of my Swift with Brooks saddle with Thudbuster and rack.

awagner

I skimmed through about fifty US patents on folding mechanisms, and ended up settling on Dahon's bikes as having the best designed folding mechanisms. I spent an entire day test riding and folding the Bromptons, Dahons, and the Birdy. I settled on a Dahon Speed P8 and I've been commuting on it for a few months now.

For the price difference between a Dahon and a Brompton/Birdy, you could replace most of the parts on the Dahon with parts of your choice, and end up with a better bike than a stock Brompton/Birdy.

The thing that took the Bromptons out of consideration for me was how many of their parts are both proprietary and made out of molded plastic, even on their most expensive model. Proprietary bits are OK, but only if they are necessary and if they are very will implemented. The proprietary bits on most Dahons are IMHO all very well implemented, and in any case are supposedly warranted for life. Some of the components they get most criticized for are new standards from other companies that are marginal improvements and in most peoples' eyes are not worth breaking with tradition. (I-beam and the 1:1 cable pull of the SRAM shifting mechanisms)

The birdy seems to me like it was designed by non-engineers, or at least engineers who haven't spent their childhoods analyzing minutae of bicycle design. In addition to smaller design infractions, I seem to remember the seat stays being open at the top, closed at the bottom so that they would fill up with rainwater. I was also advised by a salesperson that the asymmetry of the folding mechanism when loaded results in rapid and asymmetric rear tire wear.

In my opinion (as a biased user) a customized mid-range Dahon is probably the best quick-folding bike that money can buy right now.

Mr_Super_Socks

+1
I wouldn't get hung up on the fender issue. Just find the bike you like and if it doesn't come with fenders, buy some 20" fenders from Gaerlan or elsewhere. good luck.

Fear&Trembling

Hi Eggplant Jeff,

Bromptons can be heavily modified. Handlebars, Disc brakes, hub brakes, Rohloff hub, different rear sprockets, racks, use a Birdy rear elastomer etc. However, you are stuck with ERTO 349 wheels which do not roll as well as ERTO 406...

As for folding, the Brommie is intuitive and can be done with surprising celerity.

Hi awagner,

Markus Riese and Heiko Mueller studied mechanical engineering at the Technical University, Darmstadt and were greatly influenced by the designs Dr Alex Moulton.

I cannot say I have noticed higher than normal tyre wear on my Birdy when compared to other small-wheelers that I have owned, but as tyres are relatively inexpensive it is not something that overly concerns me.

The Birdy seat stays have drainage holes to channel any accumulated water away.

wpflem

Only the frame and folding mechanisms on Dahon are warrantied for life...if the bike is tuned and inspected by a mechanic after purchase.

v1nce

Hey Jef

Member Chris runs his KHS folder with Folding pedals that accept PowerGrips. A much cheaper option than all the ones mentioned above and worth a look i think.

How long untill you need the folder..? I ask because i am personally holding out for the New Downtube Mini that hopefully should be out in 6 to 12 months. It will be somewhat like the Brompton but i am getting the impression it will boots it's butt in many ways/be better. To wit: Cheaper, Better drivetrain (Capreo), Carrybag included?, Lighter/Alu etc.

folder fanatic

I think I might be able to help you on both the Dahon and the Brompton. I own both makes. The Dahon is a 2 year old 2003 Boardwalk S1. The Brompton is a 1 1/2 month old C-type or CE3. The Dahon-even though it came with fenders and a rear rack-has been extensively upgraded resulting in doubling it's original price when I purchased it. The Brompton pretty much started out the way I like my bikes (internal hub drive train, handlebar mounted shifter, simple styled suspension). The only modifications that I will do is to change the shifter to a metal traditional Sturmey-Archer one within the month and in the future add a sprung Brooks saddle. I find that I don't need a rack and fenders at this time. For more information on my experiences of both these bikes, just do a search on my user name-Folder Fanatic-and get a complete rundown on these bikes as well as do a search on www.dahon.com using the same user name.

I am not sure why people here in the US avoid the Brompton. My guess is that Americans are such gearheads and go for bikes that offer the most gears rather than one that reflects reality. In my case, both bikes handle the wide variety of hills around my house very well and having an exposed derailleur is not the smartest thing to have since debris, moisture, and getting caught on bushes etc. types of damage appear to go hand in hand with a small wheeled derailleur equipped bike. The internal hub gear is not effected by these maintenance headaches and can go longer without needing much fuss.


As for your post, Eggplant Jeff, let me encourage you into a purchase of either bike. I find both are great rides and I would recommend both to you-although with the Brompton I would go Ala Carte and select the components and accessories-i.e. the rear rack and the fenders without the fancy front hub powered hubs they offer on their higher end models. The Dahon I recommend is the basic, yet an excellent introduction into folders is the Boardwalk S1-but only if you have a really good bike shop lined up to do the modifications you want done on it. Avoid the aluminum framed models like the Vitesse since you will not be able to modify anything on it. Or the vertical rear dropouts on most other models since you need a chain tensioner when you go single speed, fixed, or internal hub gears. The Brompton is the best one when you use public transit since it folds so compact (you have to see it to believe it)! The S1 is compact but somewhat bigger and will be noticed (and probably stopped) when you lug it onto some buses, planes, and other limitly spaced areas.

I don't use clipless pedals as I prefer folding pedals for compactness in tight spaces. But I am sure others will help you in that area. Please feel free to post more questions and comments. And when you do find the bike you are comfortable with, what you selected.

juan162

v1nce,
just to clarify, am I correct in assuming that downtube will soon be carrying a 16" wheel folder?
juan162

awagner

I agree with folder fanatic that you should buy either bike. Do make sure you test ride them, fold them, lift them up to shoulder height a few times, and talk to a mechanic before buying to know what you are getting into. The 20" Dahons, the Bromptons, and the Birdies all have dramatically different qualities in terms of ease of folding, ease of hefting, ease of maintenance, and ride quality, and all of these are subjective.

For example, I saw the Brompton next to a Dahon, lifted them both in the air, and couldn't understand why everyone talks about the Brompton being significantly smaller. It felt smaller to me while I was riding it, but not while I was picking it up folded. The Brompton was a titanium show model, compared to a steel Dahon. Could be be a matter of visual perception, it could be how I was picking up the bikes... dunno. The frame on the Brompton sure was sexy, and if I were loaded, I might be tempted to get one just for that reason, but from a pure utilitarian standpoint I couldn't see any advantage of the Brompton I test rode over the Dahons I test rode. You may look at the same bikes and get the exact opposite impression, and that why I strongly recommend buying one in person, even if you have to travel to do so.

Eggplant Jeff

Well in fact I will be travelling this weekend and I'm going to stop at a shop that has them and try 'em out. I doubt I'll be purchasing quite yet but you never know, my wife might just say go for it... I hope! Actually I think this purchase will not be until we get our tax refund... But it'll be good to be able to try them out.

v1nce

@ Juan, yes indeed that is the plan last i heard, chk out the DT threads, not too much info but some, i don't want to get on Yan's case, he is busy enough as it is.

igor455

I got a picallo 3 just to see what it was like, I keep it in the trunk of my car along with my bike friday NWT. The three speed really gives me a workout on the Balt annap bike trail ( i live right off it behind marley station mall ) what with only 3 speeds . I spent 9 years as a bike cop and rode full size fujis and treks and i like the folders. what can you take on hte marc trains. the shop in mt airy is the same a college park cycles and they had folders there you could try if you can send me a private message with your e mail you can try mine igor

Fear&Trembling

For example, I saw the Brompton next to a Dahon, lifted them both in the air, and couldn't understand why everyone talks about the Brompton being significantly smaller. It felt smaller to me while I was riding it, but not while I was picking it up folded.

The average folded dimensions of a Brompton are: 565mm x 545mm x 250mm (22.2" x 21.5" x 9.8” ). This is considerably smaller than 20" wheeled Dahons. If it does not look like much to the naked eye, I can assure you it is important on a multi-modal commute where space on a crowded train, metro or bus can be at a premium. Many times have I cursed my Birdy when trying to squeeze it into a confined space that I know a Brompton will snugly fit...

BruceMetras

Actually, you can fit a hub gear nicely to a Dahon with vertical drops without the use of a chaintensioner with a little bit of gear juggling, as I've done on my aluminum framed Jetstream XP.. it's not a slam dunk as with horizontal drops, but still doable without frame modifcations or custom bits.

Bruce

Eggplant Jeff

Well I went to the absolutely terrific Trophy Bikes in Philadelphia this weekend. Great guy Mike there, knowledgable, helpful, makes me wish my LBSes were half that good.

Surprisingly, the two I liked the most were the Brompton (ok that one's not a surprise ) and the Xootr Swift.

From the pictures I didn't think the Swift folded very small, and it sort of doesn't. All it does is fold in half, basically. However that means it's still very thin (especially if you remove the handlebars; reinstallation was a lot easier than I had anticipated). However, the thing that amazed me was that the fold time is like ONE second. Release two quick releases, slide seat up, fold, slide seat down, tighten one quick release. Done. And if you're talking about having it on the subway or something, thin is good.

The Swift is also... swift. It was significantly faster than the Brompton. However it was a LOT stiffer... which is good and bad. Good because less flex means less wasted effort. Bad because I really felt every defect in the sidewalk/street.

However, I think the swift would make a better weekend bike that can be easily carried without a bike rack rather than a commuter. Because of the small wheels, I can't really make use of a rack on a folder. When riding one of the Bromptons I got hot and strapped my jacket to the rack. My huge feet were kicking it every time they went by. And my jacket is a lot smaller rolled up than my current trunk bag. Probably wouldn't be as much of an issue on a 20-inch wheel bike, but still there is no way I could run panniers.

However the Brompton solves all that with their awesome luggage system. The front-mounted bag that clips on and off? And you can clip it to the bike when you fold everything but the handlebars? So you can wheel it behind you like a suitcase? That's insane. Someone spent a LOT of time thinking about stuff.

The Brompton is clearly the one most designed with a business commuter in mind. It had all sorts of little features that were just neat and worked well.

The Dahons I was a little disappointed with. He had a Helios and a Presto Lite in stock. He really thought the Vitesse would be a better one for me and was disappointed he couldn't show me one, when lo and behold a customer brings one in for service. Obviously I couldn't test-ride it, but we could fold it up and stuff.

I definitely noticed the difference in size between the Dahons and the Brompton. I mean, if you just glance at 'em, yeah they both fold small. But set them next to each other and the Dahon is noticably longer. Also, the Dahon doesn't fold nearly as solidly as the Brompton... That magnetic latch thingy isn't really all that solid. In fact the customer's bike wouldn't even fold to where the magnets would touch (something kept it like 1/2 an inch too far apart). Yeah I know a small bungee and you're done. But it was just one more little thing where the Brompton was nicer.

Admittedly the Dahons were the least expensive by a noticable margin and I wouldn't really expect 'em to compare to something double or triple the price. They definitely seemed great for if you want a bike you can pack easily in a car. But I'm looking for something I can carry around on a commute or into stores or offices or whatever... and the Brompton just looks a little better for that kinda thing. And, I am lucky enough to be in a position where the price is not a huge factor. If I had a $500 limit I'd buy a Dahon in a heartbeat.

One thing I didn't like as much as I thought I would on the Brompton was the P-bars. The handlebars that go out, up, and back in. I thought the multiple hand positions would be cool, but really they weren't. I only used the top position anyway, the lower ones weren't comfortable. However, the riding position must be more upright than on my current bike (hybrid with flat handlebars) because I could really feel that my arms weren't carrying as much weight as normal. So hand positions probably won't be as much of an issue because my hands shouldn't get as tired. Which is good because it means I can buy the less expensive M bars .

I yammered about the bikes at my wife a bunch on the trip home and after a while she said "OK you should get the Brompton. You've said a lot more 'pros' about it than the others and a lot fewer 'cons'." So I think that's what I'll be getting . Now I just need that tax rebate...