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Dahon Speed TR vs Swift

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Dahon Speed TR vs Swift

Old 01-31-06, 04:21 PM
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Dahon Speed TR vs Swift

Well over the last 3 days, I got to ride a BF, Dahon and Swift. Although, I rode each one for 5 or so minutes on flat city streets, they all felt pretty nice. I quickly got used to the 20" wheels. Because I am looking for 1 bike (right now), I eliminated the BF because it appears designed to fold primarily for travelling and I want one that I might fold several times a day. So, right now it's between the Dahon TR (I test drove the P8) and the Swift. I really like the simple look and color of Swift over the P8 which I assume is similar to the TR. I emailed Dahon to get the specs and pricing (the 2005 is $899) for the TR. The 2006 cat provides detail specs on the P8 but scant ones for the TR.

Of course, I still need to decide whether I go with either the 2 front chain rings (no front derailleur for now) + external 8 speed for 16 speeds or the dual drive internal hub giving 24 speed. If I do decide to go with the 2 chain rings, I would want to go with a high 54 and lower than 39 if that is doable. I'm waiting for someone from Swift to get back to me.

I am leaning towards the Swift. I like the simple style of the frame especially the horizontal top bar. It looks more like a road bike than a BMX. Because of the horizontal 180 degree top bar, the bike can easily be carried with one hand or on your shoulder without folding it.

I want to thank Wavshrdr for the great photos that got my juices flowing.
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Old 01-31-06, 07:34 PM
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Stargazer - Glad you liked the photos of my bike. I just wanted to do something different than all the other "race" Swifts you see here. I wanted something unique yet very versatile. Sort of like an Audi Avant Quattro. It is amazing how different it looks compared to the other Swifts but with the exact same type frame.

As of front chainrings, I am running a 53/39 front double on my Swift so it is definitely doable. You can run a rear derailleur if you want or go and internal 8spd hub like I did or even a DD setup if you prefer. The bike lends itself to many different cofigurations.
I personally don't see the need for the DD setup unless you need and extreme range of gearing. I like the single cog on the rear because it is easier to pack in a suitcase, less gunk on the rear and nothing really hanging down that can get busted off to speak. When I had a big sprocked on the back my derailleur on the back hung down REALLY low and I caught a lot of grass with it do to the 20" wheels.

I find it is quite easy to carry on my shoulder like you mentioned. I sling it over my shoulder (when it isn't muddy or wet) and it's pretty easy to balance. My fully kitted Swift weighs less than a Speed TR and mine has fenders, rack and internal hub.

Either bike is a nice piece but when I decided on a new platform for my custom bike, I went with a Swift. I still have a few things left to do but it is so pleasant to ride that every spare second I am out cruising on it. Tonight I rode about 10 miles with my kids even though there was a lot of snow and ice in some areas. If you do go with a Swift, I HIGHLY recommend the going with the Deore XT brakes. These things are really nice and progressive and worked pretty well even when my rims were wet.

If you have any questions that require a lot of detail about my Swift, feel free to email me directly or send a PM.
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Old 01-31-06, 10:50 PM
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Get a Swift.

I think Wavshrdr was referring to me, BruceMetras, and Jollydriver when he mentioned "race Swifts you see around here".

Point being that if you check-out the Swift thread, you probably won't see so many different incarnations of a folding bike. You can go sparse with a single-speed/fixed-gear configuration, to a sharp road bike, to a cyclocross machine, to a more luxurious and styled configuration, and practically anything else in between. The Swift can accomodate an internal gear hub, 8/9 speed cassette, fixed gear, or single-speed conversion. The rear dropouts are spaced at 132.5mm, which allows you to slightly compress them to fit any 130mm road bike hub, or slightly expand them to fit any 135mm mountain bike hub. The horizontal dropouts allow you to run the gamut of extremes: from a quick-release mountain hub on the weekdays, to a solid-axle fixed track hub on the weekends. The stem post accepts any standard 1 1/8" threadless stem, which opens-up the front-end to an infinite number of configuration options as well: from a flat mountain bar, to drop bars, to bullhorn time-trial bars, and even those funky mustache bars as spec'ed on the new Hon Solo.

And when it comes to parts and maintenance, the only parts that are non-standard on the Swift, meaning parts you can't get from your LBS, are the stem post and the seat post. Everything else can be swapped-out for off-the-shelf bike parts (I've thrown an eclectic mix of PerformanceBike and misc parts from mountain bike/bmx/single-speed web shops at my Swift with no fuss).

Service and support: the guys at Xootr have been nothing but helpful and responsive to my questions. When I asked Xootr for a custom single-speed wheel, they immediately forwarded my request to Peter Reich, designer of the Swift, who patiently put-up with my annoying questions and sold me the wheel that best suited my needs.

And to top it off, the bike folds!

Last edited by james_swift; 02-01-06 at 06:52 AM.
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Old 02-01-06, 03:22 AM
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The Dahon seems to by a pretty solid machine, but the Swift is very light and is very plastic for different configurations. I would go for a Swift but, as I told you in a previous thread, I would assemble a Shimano Nexus 8 (without built in coaster brake) + a double chain ring (53, 39) at the front. And please when you get the bicycle and set it up for your long journey, post some pictures. Oh, one more thing I forgot: if you instal a internal gear hub, use the V brakes Wavshrdr recommends, not the roller brake.

Last edited by caotropheus; 02-01-06 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 02-01-06, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by caotropheus
Oh, one more thing I forgot: if you instal a internal gear hub, use the V brakes Wavshrdr recommends, not the roller brake.
Would you mind explaining the difference?

Thanks

SG

Last edited by stargazer48; 02-01-06 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 02-01-06, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by james_swift
the only parts that are non-standard on the Swift, meaning parts you can't get from your LBS, are the stem post and the seat post.
Is this the case with BF or Dahon or is this non-standard specific to Swift? Outside of calling Swift (assuming he or the Taiwan branch are in business), where would I get a replacement part if I have a problem like theft or damage?

Thanks

SG
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Old 02-01-06, 10:18 AM
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That is the beauty of the Swift, it will take so many "standard" parts. Most folders have very many unique (to that brand) parts that you can ONLY get a replacement from them. For example Dahon has hubs that are specific and unique to their models and don't fit any other bikes. One owner of a Dahon was faced with trying to find a replacement part for a rear hub that he couldn't find anywhere. It was a minor part and couldn't get it anywhere nor did Dahon have one. To their credit, Dahon sent him an ENTIRE new rear hub to replace the minor little part that broke.

As for the brake question, look at the style of brakes on my bike and you will see how they operate. They are a parallel push design and work quite evenly on the rim. This gives greater swept area and more even wear not to mention excellent power and modulation (control).

From what caotropheus is recommending is to build a bike just like mine for what you want to do. I did a lot of investigation before I finally went with my final design. If it suits your needs I welcome you to copy it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery! I did like some of the more racier Swifts such as Bruce's and Jame's but they didn't suit my need for touring in a wide range of terrain including some off road. This is such an awesome bike and the bonus (as others have mentioned) is it folds.

Last night I encounted my first weakness (but is true of all small wheeled bike not just the Swift), I was following my soon on his MTB and he went over a big curb. I of course decided to follow him (like an idiot). The curb was a lot higher than it looked so I decided to bunny hop it. Unfortunately I had my rear rack loaded up with groceries. You guessed it by now, I didn't clear it. Actually I "almost" did. My front just about made it but then my pedal struck the curb and knocked me back, front wheel came down but I still had momentum and endo'd over the bars. I quite nicely separated my shoulder and had to ride about 6 miles back home after popping it back in place. It wouldn't have been so bad but my feet were trapped in the power grips so the full weight of me, the bike and my groceries was concentrated in a small area.

Fortunately I didn't scuff up my Brooks saddle of the bike. The saddle is finally starting to break in but none too quickly. To top it off it started snowing on the way home. In spite of being in a lot of pain, the bike was still a pleasure to ride. I hit the curb pretty hard and it did no damage to the bike. I would guess that the bike had at least 250lbs on it at the time of impact. So if I didn't break it then, most people would be HIGHLY unlikely to do it. If I didn't have the groceries I would have easily cleared it. It feels like you are riding a BMX bike at times so I keep having to remember when it is setup in its "touring config" with rack an panniers. This bike just feels so nimble and responsive without being twitchy that I find myself riding it like a sport bike/bmx bike a lot of the time. It is so "tossable" that things that would bight you on other bikes are taken in stride on the Swift. I don't know many 20" folders that I feel comfortable enough to ride no-handed but the Swift is very easy to do it with (I am not recommending do this though). In my winter jacket I sometimes need to adjust things and it is tough to do it with 1 hand. To make these adjustments while riding the Swift is not an issue.

Top this off with Peter's service and it is a great bike. Peter, Walter (@ Bike Friday) and Yan (@ Downtube) are the best people I've had the pleasure to deal with in the folding area. They are all enthusiasts and it shows. Give Peter a call if you are considering a Swift. Tell him you like the John Deere green Swift and you want something like it. He will know exactly what you are looking for.
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Old 02-01-06, 10:29 AM
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I know some of you are using or have recommended a double chain ring of 53/39. With an 8 speed 11-32 freewheel, that will give you a range of 24.4" - 96.4".
Since i'll be sometimes using the folder to do touring with a 30 to 50 lb load, i'll need a wider range (need to save my knees and spin). Pardon my ignorance, but could I easily use a 56/32, which would give a range of 20" - 101.8". Would it effect the folding? Would I need a better rear derailleur? This would almost replicate the Dahon TR range of 19" - 99".

SG
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Old 02-01-06, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by stargazer48
Would you mind explaining the difference?

Thanks

SG
This is not my experience, but Sheldon Brown's experience. I am so light (54 kg)that even paper brakes would stop my bicycle In one of Sheldon Brown's articles the roller brake in extreme use may fail or not stop strong enough. Beside the braking problem, the roller brake is very heavy.
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Old 02-01-06, 12:47 PM
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Hey folks, just joined and am minutes away from ordering a Swift. Thanks for all the posts in the past, here's my $0.02 about Shimano Nexus. Day in and day out, 50 miles a week for years, they last less than 10K miles. N=3. Haven't found anyone in town who will take them apart for repairs, so when they die, you deal with it. We swapped out one hub for another on my wife's commuter (Wheeler, purchased from American Cyclery in SF). I went with a Nexave silent clutch hub designed for a cassette. I used a single cog and spacers to convert the hub into a ss for my commuter (Bianchi Milano with changed drivetrain, front and rear) (Thanks to Sheldon for the help on the Nexave conversion). The reason to go with the Nexave is it works with the Nexus Roller Brake. About the brake: Excellent thing. add grease every now and then, and it'll last for a LONG time. Good braking, good control, works in the rain as well as it does in the dry. I like it alot. The hub is HEAVY, the brake is not really. And last, I just got a Nexus front dynamo hub/wheel and really like it also. Don't have to carry a light or batteries and it's always there. I don't find the drag to be that noticeable, I'm still traveling at 14-15 mph on my ride to work, lugging a Timbuktu pack on my back.
Cheers to all, this is my first post, hope it provides some info. John Hess in cloudy Davis, CA
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Old 02-01-06, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by stargazer48
Is this the case with BF or Dahon or is this non-standard specific to Swift? Outside of calling Swift (assuming he or the Taiwan branch are in business), where would I get a replacement part if I have a problem like theft or damage?

Thanks

SG
The seatpost can be purchased from the Xootr Swift accessories page. As for the stempost, since you bring up the subject of theft, I recently had mine stolen on a rare day when I had to lock-up my bike in a communal bike cage in a parking garage. I emailed Xootr, and they sent me one pronto!

Much thanks to Steve@Xootr, by the way.
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Old 02-01-06, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by stargazer48
I know some of you are using or have recommended a double chain ring of 53/39. With an 8 speed 11-32 freewheel, that will give you a range of 24.4" - 96.4".
Since i'll be sometimes using the folder to do touring with a 30 to 50 lb load, i'll need a wider range (need to save my knees and spin). Pardon my ignorance, but could I easily use a 56/32, which would give a range of 20" - 101.8". Would it effect the folding? Would I need a better rear derailleur? This would almost replicate the Dahon TR range of 19" - 99".

SG
SG- once you get over 20 teeth difference on the front chainrings, shifting starts (or can be) an issue. You ight want to consider one of the Megarange clusters on the rear. I think the biggest gear is 34T but I am not sure it will work (i.e. enough clearance). The rear derailleur would be hanging pretty low. That is why I went with an internal hub rather than a rear derailleur as I wanted more clearance for off-road or trail riding.

SO you might want to consider reducing the gap on the front rings to 20T. That still might give you adequate range. As for the 19" gear inches range on the TR, I rode one up a very steep hill and I never ever got down to 1st gear. I could walk faster I think than spinning that one at 80-90 rpm. At about 20 gear inches this would put you at about 5.5 mph for 90 rpm.
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Old 02-01-06, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by james_swift
The seatpost can be purchased from the Xootr Swift accessories page. As for the stempost, since you bring up the subject of theft, I recently had mine stolen on a rare day when I had to lock-up my bike in a communal bike cage in a parking garage. I emailed Xootr, and they sent me one pronto!

Much thanks to Steve@Xootr, by the way.
Also for the record, the Dahon seat post works quite well in the Swift and you can get it in carbon fiber if you are a weight weenie! In one of my photos (with Thudbuster and Brooks saddle) I have the Dahon telescopic seat post so that I can use a "normal" Thudbuster and not the special Dahon one.
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Old 02-01-06, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavshrdr
One owner of a Dahon was faced with trying to find a replacement part for a rear hub that he couldn't find anywhere. It was a minor part and couldn't get it anywhere nor did Dahon have one. To their credit, Dahon sent him an ENTIRE new rear hub to replace the minor little part that broke.
That's the exact same scenario I experienced with my '05 Vitesse D5! Only difference being that Montier (of Dahon California) sent me a WHOLE new bike, and even comp'ed the shipping charges both ways! But by that time, I had already taken shipment of my new Swift. This, after months of going back and forth on emails to Dahon, and fruitless visits to LBSes, hardware stores, and online shops to try to find the parts I needed.

It was a hard, expensive lesson, and ultimately what made me choose a Swift over a Bike Friday as a replacement for my Dahon (which now serves as my "beater bike").
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Old 02-01-06, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavshrdr
Also for the record, the Dahon seat post works quite well in the Swift and you can get it in carbon fiber if you are a weight weenie! In one of my photos (with Thudbuster and Brooks saddle) I have the Dahon telescopic seat post so that I can use a "normal" Thudbuster and not the special Dahon one.
Yeah, I've noticed that my Vitesse seatpost fits my Swift, albeit just slightly loose. Do you know off-hand the actual diameter of your Dahon seat post? I've read somewhere that it's 34mm, although the Swift post is spec'ed at 32.9mm. How can that be?
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Old 02-01-06, 01:26 PM
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Dahon is 34mm.
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Old 02-01-06, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by stargazer48
Is this the case with BF or Dahon or is this non-standard specific to Swift? Outside of calling Swift (assuming he or the Taiwan branch are in business), where would I get a replacement part if I have a problem like theft or damage?

Thanks

SG
Both BF and Swift take standard-sized parts minus stem and seatpost as mentioned. Dahon rear dropouts are the BMX 110mm standard size, which can be widened if you have a cromo frame. Dahon front dropouts are the non-standard 74mm size; you will find almost no manufacturer carries this size as an off-the-shelf product. The front forks could potentially be widened, but if any have done this, I have not read any report about how this affects folding.

Dahon folds the best; Swift folds better than BF; BF is not the ideal if you fold regularly. From experience though, BF rides very well, which is its greatest strength.
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Old 02-01-06, 02:04 PM
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I'd say the Swift, the dropouts, standardization!, price? as well as the stability of the frame are just cooler.

Unless you are likely to do a lot of Multi Mode commuting, then the better fold of the Dahon may be a real asset.

Many Props to Dahon for the examples of great service, but it still reeks that they engage in non standardization IMO. Oh well.

I couldn't interest you in a Downtube by chance could i?! (I joke! I joke!)
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Old 02-01-06, 02:09 PM
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@ John, good first post! I agree with you on the Nexus (you were talking about the Nexus Hub Gears right...?) i get the very strong feeling (from what LBS and other users say) is that they are meant to have build in obsolesence and that they are meant to force you to buy expensive 'units' rather than little parts, plus they are suppossed to be a cranky b**ch to work on. So i say to hell with those hubs, i will take the extra weight of a cheap Sturmey Archer any day and laugh all the way for the next 30 years that it will probably last me.
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Old 02-01-06, 02:49 PM
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Lets see, If I ride 20 miles every day, my Nexus should last me at least 2 years. Considering the way technology improves there will be likely something I would prefer to have anyway. Although from what I read the Nexus 8spd is supposed to have even better parts and be more efficient than the 7spd ones.

Another way I look at it that what I save in fuel costs by riding my bike when I can will more than pay for a derailleur now and then. I have absolutely no plans to keep any of my bikes for more than 5 or so years anyway although the Swift might be my first bike that has a chance. It may take that long for my Brooks to break-in anyway.

For me my Swift is like a cross between the a Dahon and a BF. You get a fold better more like a Dahon and a ride like a BF. Sort of have your cake and eat it too.
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Old 02-01-06, 05:13 PM
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Sure Wave, i did not mean it as a poke at your hub, my opinion only applies to me and my needs. YMMV! Plus it also really depends on what one can get a good deal on. I can get the SA 3 for free so obviously it is a nop brainer for me. I have no idea how the 8 Speed Sturmey archer (and it is hard to find too) performs so i was only speaking of the 3 speed SA vs the Nexus 3.
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Old 02-01-06, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Wavshrdr
SG- once you get over 20 teeth difference on the front chainrings, shifting starts (or can be) an issue. You ight want to consider one of the Megarange clusters on the rear. I think the biggest gear is 34T but I am not sure it will work (i.e. enough clearance). The rear derailleur would be hanging pretty low. That is why I went with an internal hub rather than a rear derailleur as I wanted more clearance for off-road or trail riding.

SO you might want to consider reducing the gap on the front rings to 20T. That still might give you adequate range. As for the 19" gear inches range on the TR, I rode one up a very steep hill and I never ever got down to 1st gear. I could walk faster I think than spinning that one at 80-90 rpm. At about 20 gear inches this would put you at about 5.5 mph for 90 rpm.
I have never toured with a loaded bike before so I don't what gearing I am going to need to tackle hills with an additional 40lbs. Right now, with a 35lb weighted PX10 (I carry a lot of stuff), I easily do 9 to 11 mph on the fairly 1/3 mile steep hill riding 64 gear inches (45/19). Maybe one of the Brooklynites here might know the grade degree on the hill in Propect Park before Grand Plaza exit. Would a 54/35 or 54/36 combo work without problems? If yes, are these chainring sizes be available for the Swift crank? I have also asked Peter if I can get a 9 speed external if the lowest gear was greater than 32? I believe SuperSocks put one on his P8.

I just had a nice thought about reducing my riding load. Although, I am 182lbs, I probably would lose 10 lbs doing full time touring. Last year when I spent 1 month in Thailand for the 1st time, and I lost about 5 lbs. just walking and doing limited biking with a crappy rental. Since the food was sooo cheap, I ate more than I normally would eat at home including lots and lots of great sweet desserts which I rarely have.

Back to folders....
The 1st time I heard about and saw a Thudbuster was on the Dahon Speed TR. Are they worth the $100 they cost? That's a nice feature Dahon includes in their $900 price.

I reread your post and saw that you opted to go with the Al over the steel frame. Wouldn't the steel give you a stiffer more comfortable ride? What is the weight difference?

Can't wait to speak to Peter to get this project off the ground

SG
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Old 02-01-06, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by james_swift
As for the stempost, since you bring up the subject of theft, I recently had mine stolen on a rare day when I had to lock-up my bike in a communal bike cage in a parking garage.
I have been very fortunate in NYC. In the last 35 years, I have had only one bike stolen when I worked as a bicycle messenger. It was an old Frejus with Campy components. Great road bike. The good news was that the thief left his crappy but working Legano as a replacement so I was able to work the last 3 weeks making another $500 before I headed off to Europe.
Even with my old crappy looking PX10, I carry 2 Kryptonite Ulocks to lock the frame and both wheels.

SG
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Old 02-01-06, 06:39 PM
  #24  
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I personally am quite happy with the ride. Keep in mind that many factors can influence ride quality more than frame material. Tires play a big part. As for the Thudbuster it is definitely worth the money to me. I have a couple of them if that is any indication of how much I like them. For what I've invested in Thudbusters I could have bought another nice bike.

I went with the aluminum frame as I think it saves a couple pounds and Peter assured me the reliability would not be an issue. Both frames have the same warranty.

As for gearing I like having something down around the 24" range for when I am fully loaded and on the steep climbs. It is still faster than walking (if not by much). Obviously this is a personal as well as environmental choice. For me I'd rather spin than stand on the pedals. It is easier on my knees and most folders don't like all the stress you can put on them by standing up. You get a lot more leverage (on most folders) with the long stems up front and this can exert a lot more force on components. So I have adopted the sit and spin method on steep hills. I choose an appropriate gear to allow me to do this.
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Old 02-01-06, 08:04 PM
  #25  
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My Halfway has a range of 23.2 to 133.5, 24 Spd.

It is more than what I need to do Brevets, but it is exactly how I wanted to ride in the mountains of Rio de Janeiro, Brazil (Where I go twice a year).

Just some extra (good) info about the DD.

Rafael Guerra
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