pacman76

[i originally posted this in "mechanics"... my mistake. please, fixie folks, humor this plea from a soon-to-be new fixie rider]

so, i've been all over the net and i've read all kinds of - like woah - detail on myriad websites, and my head is spinning. so i want kind, firm, and specific recommendations here... cast your opinions upon me! please!!

i got a really nice looking peugeot UE-8, and i want to convert it to a fixed gear bike (my first, thank you! ). i want a new bb/crankset because the existing one is nasty. what do i go with? i'm well aware of the whole french threading issue. just... tell me what to do. i'm drowning in information. i've found bbs that thread to themselves, so the threading in the shell is bypassed. i've also found contemporary parts that will fit the threading of the shell. i've also heard i can get it re-thread to italian style. i'm sure there are more ideas. so what's the best thing to do?

in the end, i'd like a new crank set-up that is light, and that i can run clip pedals from. i'd also like to be able to run a modern spline system, if that's at all possible. is there any way to run a modern system like that out of the UE-8 bb shell? if not, i'll live. but i still want something on the pretty nice, reliable, and low maintenance. a sealed cartridge would be hot (whereas i think cup and cones are thumbs down with me). is this all an actual possibility or just a prayer?

this type of question has probably been asked 100 times. if so, sorry. but if you have made a conversion like this, tell me exactly what you used. at this point, you could tell me it was pixie dust and butterflies, and i'd believe you.

thanks!

shants

for the sort of stuff you're talking about, you're going to probably need to go with phil wood's options. they still sell french threaded cups that are compatible with all of their cartridge systems. that's going to be cashmoney, but your best bet for getting a french-threaded system to mate with any crank you throw at it.

that said, i have a set of french-threaded sugino cups that i was able to come across with a sugino 75 109mm square taper spindle. it's extremely smooth with phil grease and high quality bearings.

chances are that you can clean and reuse your current cups and replace it with a shorter spindle so that you can use sugino or other square taper track cranks. if you can give me specific information, i would be more than happy to help you figure out exactly what you need to buy, etc.

good luck.

weed eater

Praying probably won't hurt. I am in the midst of a similar conversion (and got thoroughly pummeled in the mechanics section, as well). Here's what I have learned:

--You can get new cups for the BB, and a spindle too. Get french threaded cups, and then get an Italian spindle (sounds crazy, i know, but I think this is right) which fits it and can take modern cranksets. Go to Harris Cyclery's French parts section, it sounds like you know it well.
https://sheldonbrown.com/harris/frenc...ks.html#bottom.
If you go this route (and someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) you can run a good new crankset, clipless pedals, the whole bit.
(Revision: I thought Harris sold Sugino french threaded cups. But now I can't find them on the site, only the much-more-expensive TA cups. Ack?)

--To use a modern splined system you'd have to get the BB shell rethreaded. Probably not worth the expense. edit: er, I didnt' know about the Phil option, so I stand corrected, and it is also probably not worth the expense.

--Cups and cones are cool. Know them, love them. Or maybe it's to know them is to love them. I think R-dub was working on a pixie-dust lube system for a while there. Seriously though. Not a problem.

--Tell me more about these self-threading BBs? Uh?

good luck, and wish me the same, and keep us posted of your progress. Those peugeots are too sexy for their own good, if you ask me.

shants

just so you know, harris does not have the sugino french cups that they say that they have on their site. they are bloody terrible about updating their stock.

if you can find them, definitely pick them up. probably one of the best parts that i ever picked up for my french bike.

Poguemahone

Don't bother with the re-threading unless you are desperate. Here's what I do on these particular Peugeots and their semi-troublesome bottom brackets. I go and find myself a Japanese made, french threaded bottom bracket. These were made by Sugino and Sakae, as well as the ever-present Shimano. The reason is simple: the Japanese made bottom brackets have a thicker wall than the Nervar made ones that were standard on your bicycle. They can accommodate a variety of spindles from Japanese cranksets, which greatly increases the number of cranks you can easily use. In addition, they tend to be cheaper $$$ wise than Euro French threaded stuff; if you want to spend money, find an old Stronglight bottom bracket for French bikes (I certainly wouldn't stick a Stronglight on a lower end ride like a UO/UE8. Save them for a PX10, or a Lejeune Professional, or a Rene Herse, the last of which you'd be insane to convert to a fixie anyhoo). You can buy the Japanese French cups from your LBS for about 55$ (they are still made), but I'd wait for some on ebuy.

It helps to have access to a Var 30 or like tool (ain't much like a Var 30), because, boy, did Peugeot stick on those BB fixed cups tight at the factory, and boy, do you want them on tight when you install one. That way you can avoid 'em coming loose, as well as the (weak) loctitie on the fixed cup solution.

As to the splined stuff, if Phil Wood is making splined BBs nowadays (I have no idea), he also makes French (and Swiss!) threaded mounting rings. You will spend beaucoup l'argent on such a project, sorry. Again, I wouldn't consider this an option on a humble UO/UE8. Go with the first suggestion.

You can also buy a cheapie sealed BB for use on frames with stripped BB shells, about 20$ at biketoolsetc.com. Never done this, mostly because I have a French threaded parts pile, but I have heard it works

I've done several conversions around French frames, so yeah, I know a bit. Ask away.

shants

just to clarify further, since i didn't really read your original post too closely....

for a cartridge system, to the best of my knowledge, phil is the only option. feel free to correct me, of course.

cup and spindle is not that scary. i promise. if you pack enough grease and use a plastic accordion-style sleeve, you can go quite a long while without having to repack. it's a skill worth having... that, repacking hubs, and repacking headsets.. you'll love it, i promise.

as for the best, it depends on your budget. the phil wood method is going to be the "easiest," but not the cheapest, and, frankly, i'm not convinced that phil wood bottom brackets provide better performance than a properly set up high-quality cup and spindle setup.

pacman76

well, i ran into this cryptic item in an article by thomas kunich (at https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kunich.html): "YST, a Taiwanese firm, makes a cheap copy of the older Mavic bottom bracket that has it's own internal sleeve and doesn't require using the bottom bracket threads at all. You merely tighten the ends and they pinch the bottom bracket into place."

so i did some research. this is the best picture i found of said object:
https://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item4521.htm

it looks pretty hot. and it looks inexpensive... too good to be true?

yeah.. the peugeot is sexy, for sure. maybe i'm a sentimentalist, but that's my shizzle right there. my first serious ride was a 1974 lejune. heavy as lead, but lean, tall, and graceful as all get out. it was like riding a russian wolfhound. i digress...

weed eater

hey shants, you are right. I just went to the site to see how much they cost and, well, they must have updated their site cuz the sugino cups are gone. I'm hoping our existing cups will work...still havent got the cottered cranks off, so I havent' been able to take a look. If I do use the old cups, I should be able to get a sugino spindle to work with them right?

pacman76

i had a hard time with that too. in fact, my left cup is still hanging on the crank arm which is still atached to the spindle. but i went in full demo mode and stopped caring. i had to resort to drilling and sawing. but my cups are in good shape. if... IF i have to use the old cups, which i don't wanna, they're still in good shape.

i'll keep you in my thoughts when it comes time to try and take that fixed cup off...

weed eater

wow.

too good to be true would be my guess, ever the pessimist. or too low-quality to be worth the shipping. Anyone used one?

Poguemahone

If you've still got the original Nervar cups on the bike, and try and use a (edit: regular "3") Sugino spindle, the adjustable cup will go in so far you will be unable to get the lockring on it.

If you get the Sugino cups, you can use a standard Spindle (a "3") no problem, no need to get the Japanese Italian length spindle (a "5").

muccapazza

Why exactly do you advise against rethreading to Italian? There are plenty Italian thread BBs available today, options galore, without the detective work, sleuthing and waiting around your other options require. You don't say where you go to get these Japanese French thread BBs, but up here in BFE Idaho they are just not available. But I have found a shop that has experience rethreading to Italian, and the options opened up once that is done are breathtaking. Or is it just the cost of the operation for a mid range bike that's the problem?

nylund154

I too have a french threaded sugino BB and its never given me a problem.

Poguemahone

"Why exactly do you advise against rethreading to Italian? There are plenty Italian thread BBs available today, options galore, without the detective work, sleuthing and waiting around your other options require. You don't say where you go to get these Japanese French thread BBs, but up here in BFE Idaho they are just not available. But I have found a shop that has experience rethreading to Italian, and the options opened up once that is done are breathtaking. Or is it just the cost of the operation for a mid range bike that's the problem?"

1) Re tapping to Italian is a PITA. I wouldn't trust most shops to do it. Then again, I wouldn't trust most shops to hold a wrench, let alone work on anything French. If you've got a good shop, fine, but there are no good ones here (the metro area is about 3/4 million). And I personally only have French and English taps, which, coupled with my hideous bias against the LBSs, may account for my irrational stance here. Also, as you point out, there is the cost problem. Frankly, the UO/UE8, though a great ride, is not worth sinking huge $$$ into. And rethreading a high end Frenchie, like a PX10 or a Mercier 300, just goes against my grain. It may not go against yours, though, so if it's your bike, go ahead. I'm a vintage weenie.

2) Sugino (or is it Sakae?) still makes the French thread cups. Your LBS should be able to order them from Quality Bicycle Products. Last time I looked (about a year ago), they carried them, although things may have changed, since Harris doesn't appear to have them now. About 55$. If you hold out a bit, NOS ones will show up on ebuy, and they are likely to be more in the 20$ range. Shimano a bit higher. Also, the YST BBs for stripped threads are available for about 20$ thru www.biketoolsetc.com. Phils obviously cost more, I don't want to cause cardiac arrest, so I won't quote prices.

3) It's a UO/UE8. Look, I love those frames. They're great rides. I use one as a beater fixie. It's set up with a Sugino BB and a Sakae crank. It's a very comfortable ride, but it's also the bike I ride when I go to the movies and have to leave the bike locked up outside for long periods of time. I probably wouldn't stick anything on this bike I didn't find real cheap. I think both weedeater and pacman are likely to get real nice rides out of these bikes, and believe me, if the geography worked, I'd have 'em over for a beer and we'd fix up these darn Peugeots in an afternoon. I'd even remove those @#$% cotter pins. But I wouldn't put much money into them, much as I love these bikes. I would sink $$$ into a PX conversion, because I have one (okay, three, but only one is a fixie) of those, and they just rock.

But heck, I'm old, cranky, Irish, and I'm drinking, so you can always ignore me.

One of these two frames is likely to be my next fixed gear project. In the front, I have a LeJeune Professional; behind that is a Gitane, either a Super Corsa or a Tour de France (haven't figured out which just yet).

Poguemahone

Another source for Frenchie stuff, which I forgot in my current drunken stupor:

https://www.loosescrews.com/

Used to carry the Sugino BB cups, which I'm starting to wonder about the availability of. But... the also have the Shimano UN72 bottom brackets, which will work with a set of Phil Wood rings... I kid you not. Cheaper on ebuy, though.

muccapazza

No no no, it was a serious question, and I would never ignore an Irish crank, especially not a well lubed one. I have a Gitane TdF on deck, and I just wanted to know what the deal was with the rethread. I'ld really prefer just to overhaul the original, but it was given to me with just the fixed cup, so I'm looking for options too, tried to order the Sugino from Harris, etc, etc. So thanks as always, you've cleared that right up. Kind of.

weed eater

so...does this mean that if I re-use the original cups, I can use a "5" sugino? (this is how I read it on the Sheldon page too)

This evening, inspired by this thread, I finally managed to get the cotters out of the crankset. The driveside was wicked stuck but I got it out with a hammer and punch, using the old pedal spindle as a punch. Worked great, nice trick, thanks Sheldon. And the NDS came out with two hits of a hammer. So I got a look at the cups and bearings. Man, that old spindle weighs a ton! But the cups look pretty good. Just a thin wear line where the bearings have spun around for a few decades. And the ball bearings are in decent shape too. Either the BB was watertight, or not used very much, or well maintained.

I think I will get a square-taper spindle (the Sugino "5"?) and replacement bearings, and see how long that holds up. L'experts, does that seem like the best idea? Can I bug you further (later) with BB length/chainline details?

thanks shants and poguemahone for all your wisdom, and pacman for getting this thread started. i hope this thing works!

--patrick

weed eater

ps hey pacman, check out https://www.xxcycle.com , a french online parts co. they sell the stronglight A9 headset for a decent price (should you need one...) and also make you feel very français.

jacobs

Good luck ever getting the original cups to work with a new spindle, it's usually nearly impossible when the original cranks were cottered. The French Sugino cups aren't in production any more, and are almost impossible to find. The TA cups, a Phil, or a chamfered/threadless BB are your options.

I have an almost new (25 miles tops, 1 install) set of the TA French threaded BB cups. I'll let them go for $40, let me know if you're interested! Spindles are readily available.

Poguemahone

"so...does this mean that if I re-use the original cups, I can use a "5" sugino?"

Yes.

The races on the "5" spindles are slightly further apart, which allows them to fit in the narrower walled Euro cups. You can also hunt down an older Euro spindle; older Stronglights, some Campys, some TAs will work, Nervars may work, but then you may (or may not) find you have crank/spindle compatibility problems if you use a Japanese crank. On the other hand, you could just find one of those supercool Stronglight cranks with the Star shaped spider. But then you might get pedal thread issues, chainring replacement issues, and crank remover issues.

Weedeater, if the original cups are in good condition and you can work out the spindle problems, I say go for it, leave the original cups in. They are tanks and should last if maintained. You also avoid removal and installation problems. But the spindle compatability has always given me headaches; I prefer removing out the original cups and replacing 'em with the Japanese ones-- "3" spindles are easier to find, often with a nice old Sugino or Sakae crank attatched.

BTW, muccappazza, that TDF should be prime. What's the fixed cup, a Stronglight?

And remember-- French bicycles require a bit of patience when setting up. If someone came to me and wanted to build a bike to ride tommorrow, I wouldn't build them a French one. Sometimes it take a while to find the parts... and sometimes you run into odd stumbling blocks. One problem can seem to build into three more. But you come out the other end with a better appreciation for your bike and how it works. And they are nice rides. Very nice, in some cases.

pacman76

forgive me if i'm still a little dense on the matter... but i just want to clarify: you say spindles are readily available if i go with the TA bb cups. how available and how diverse would my final options be regarding the spindle, crank-arms, and pedals?

so... that shimano UN72 bottom bracket... i can get that to work phil wood retaining rings? tell me more about those? maybe i'm a dork, but i'm having a hard time finding them? can you explain how they work?

EDIT: so i took a closer look, and this phil wood/shimano un72 combo looks like a really good option. are there any objections to this route i'm not seeing? it looks like i can get french-threaded rings for like $40, and the un72 for like $15... i don't think that's too bad. and i can get all kinds of cranks and pedals and stuff, right? are there any performance issues with this set up? any reason to not do it this way?

pacman76

oh yeah... and if i went this route... what size UN72? the 70mm italian, i assume, but how long? i think this is what i'm going to do.

weed eater

Thanks for the confirmation. I looked and found that YST threadless at

https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...=YS-BB99368110

which seems like a good option if only because of its cheapness. But then there's the question of spindle length, since they all seem a bit long for a single-chainring application. I suspect the whole spindle length/chainline issue is my next ridge to crest. Any advice as to a good spindle length? I'm probably going to buy a Sugino RD crankset or similar, which needs a 103mm bb spindle to get a 42mm chainline.

Anyway, I am debating between the YST and just getting a sugino "5" and trying that out.

Sage advice. This bike was intended as a project bike, and it is certainly living up to its purpose. I've barely ridden the thing, yet I know its workings better than any bicycle I've ever owned; and it is happening a lot slower than originally intended. I get the idea that old French bikes don't want strangers riding them; you have to get to know them first.

pacman76

something about that YST threadless though... i just sort of smell fish there, and i don't know why. like i said... it seems too easy and cheap. i'd love to hear from people who have used it and had good/bad experiences. plus, it's got two different sized bearing groups on left and right... my understanding is that can be trouble. is that true?

yeah... i know this bike very well now. you know, once this is done, which could be a looong while from now, i think the whole thing will be pretty rewarding.

i think it's interesting, weed eater, that we may be going two different routes. i'm all but sold on the phil wood / shimano combo, and you've got other plans. we'll have to compare someday

weed eater

yeah, i am interested to see how it all turns out. promise to revive this thread when you get her built, and i will too...with pix!