The big flaw of VC
G
06-01-07, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by John Forester
What a silly argument. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article doesn't know vehicular cycling.
06-01-07, 07:32 PM
#303
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Originally Posted by Pete Fagerlin
You are confused.
It depends upon what the definition of "doesn't know" is. I'm sure that "doesn't know" has a Headspeak™ defintion that roughly equates to "has great knowledge of" or something similar.
It depends upon what the definition of "doesn't know" is. I'm sure that "doesn't know" has a Headspeak™ defintion that roughly equates to "has great knowledge of" or something similar.
Probably. However you have to admit this speaks volumes about what some people think they understand and about what some people have been promoting for about 30 years.
Does anyone "get it" except for the guy that wrote the book? If not how in the world should anybody else expect to "get it."
Sheesh.
Man TGIF...
06-01-07, 07:39 PM
#304
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The good/bad news of Wikipedia articles is that there are multiple people who work on them. Eventually, it works out pretty well, but there are inevitiable problems. This is one such example. I'll fix it.
You are listed as the most recent editor and have been for a while.
Originally Posted by wiki
(cur) (last) 01:41, 2 June 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (27,427 bytes) (→VC best practices, techniques and skills - pass on the outside is not inherentently non-vehicular)
(cur) (last) 06:13, 17 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (27,276 bytes) (→Destination and speed positioning - update)
(cur) (last) 19:59, 7 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,855 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - rules apply to drivers not vehicles)
(cur) (last) 19:58, 7 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,833 bytes) (→Believing in vehicular cycling - -> The Vehicular Cycling attitude)
(cur) (last) 00:23, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,263 bytes) (→Destination and speed positioning - tweak)
(cur) (last) 00:16, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,891 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car")
(cur) (last) 00:10, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,830 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - keep to outside (not right); use dest post at intersections)
(cur) (last) 04:25, 3 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,696 bytes) (→Origins of vehicular cycling)
(cur) (last) 02:19, 3 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,562 bytes) (→"VC means 'taking the lane'" - + one more common
(cur) (last) 06:13, 17 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (27,276 bytes) (→Destination and speed positioning - update)
(cur) (last) 19:59, 7 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,855 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - rules apply to drivers not vehicles)
(cur) (last) 19:58, 7 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,833 bytes) (→Believing in vehicular cycling - -> The Vehicular Cycling attitude)
(cur) (last) 00:23, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (26,263 bytes) (→Destination and speed positioning - tweak)
(cur) (last) 00:16, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,891 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car")
(cur) (last) 00:10, 4 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,830 bytes) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - keep to outside (not right); use dest post at intersections)
(cur) (last) 04:25, 3 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,696 bytes) (→Origins of vehicular cycling)
(cur) (last) 02:19, 3 May 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (25,562 bytes) (→"VC means 'taking the lane'" - + one more common
Originally Posted by wiki
(cur) (last) 21:05, 2 May 2007 Struway (Talk | contribs) m (24,801 bytes) (fixing dablink - You can help!)
(cur) (last) 18:13, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Using the full lane - tweak)
(cur) (last) 06:17, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Alternatives to vehicular cycling - links to other articles)
(cur) (last) 06:14, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - fix typo and tweak wording.)
(cur) (last) 04:23, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→The vehicular cycling attitude - Rewrite)
(cur) (last) 04:09, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→VC best practices, techniques and skills - Remove some weasal wording and unverifiable material.)
(cur) (last) 04:03, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Alternatives to vehicular cycling - Rewrite)
(cur) (last) 03:41, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - Rewrite for relevance, conciseness, coherency and removal of weasal wording)
(cur) (last) 11:40, 31 March 2007 Rjwilmsi (Talk | contribs) m (Typo & format fixing, Typos fixed: alowed → allowed, using AWB)
(cur) (last) 03:38, 29 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Tweak.)
(cur) (last) 03:16, 28 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - tweak first paragraph)
(cur) (last) 13:52, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Tighten up the writing some more.)
(cur) (last) 06:53, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Add more material about different POVs concerning mirrors.)
(cur) (last) 06:01, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - one more fix)
(cur) (last) 06:00, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - fix premature edit)
(cur) (last) 05:56, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - ewrite to remove WP
OV material, for conciseness and tweak writing.)
(cur) (last) 05:45, 25 March 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (heading restructure)
(cur) (last) 18:13, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Using the full lane - tweak)
(cur) (last) 06:17, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Alternatives to vehicular cycling - links to other articles)
(cur) (last) 06:14, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - fix typo and tweak wording.)
(cur) (last) 04:23, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→The vehicular cycling attitude - Rewrite)
(cur) (last) 04:09, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→VC best practices, techniques and skills - Remove some weasal wording and unverifiable material.)
(cur) (last) 04:03, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Alternatives to vehicular cycling - Rewrite)
(cur) (last) 03:41, 16 April 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→"VC is cycling as if you're a car" - Rewrite for relevance, conciseness, coherency and removal of weasal wording)
(cur) (last) 11:40, 31 March 2007 Rjwilmsi (Talk | contribs) m (Typo & format fixing, Typos fixed: alowed → allowed, using AWB)
(cur) (last) 03:38, 29 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Tweak.)
(cur) (last) 03:16, 28 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - tweak first paragraph)
(cur) (last) 13:52, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Tighten up the writing some more.)
(cur) (last) 06:53, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - Add more material about different POVs concerning mirrors.)
(cur) (last) 06:01, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - one more fix)
(cur) (last) 06:00, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - fix premature edit)
(cur) (last) 05:56, 25 March 2007 Bwileyr (Talk | contribs) (→Looking back - ewrite to remove WP
OV material, for conciseness and tweak writing.) (cur) (last) 05:45, 25 March 2007 Helmet Head (Talk | contribs) (heading restructure)
Last edited by genec; 06-01-07 at 07:47 PM.
06-01-07, 07:40 PM
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Ugh. I was the one who put that in, some two years ago. What I was thinking about was passing on the right when passing on the left is available and the better option. At any rate, this is what it currently says:
Some non-"VC" actions commonly taken by cyclists include:
...
Some non-"VC" actions commonly taken by cyclists include:
...
- Passing slow or stopped traffic on the outside too fast and/or without due care that comes from recognizing the extra danger in passing someone who is in the outside lane unexpectedly on the outside.
06-01-07, 07:47 PM
#306
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Originally Posted by John Forester
What a silly argument. Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article doesn't know vehicular cycling.
06-01-07, 07:51 PM
#307
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
It's my sig now!
I think the only other thing that can "boost this" is HH having an arguement with JF in the same manner he took on Hurst.
Perhaps JF can treat HH to some of that fine personal style he has, eh?
06-01-07, 08:48 PM
#309
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I'm impressed, on the ball man... on the f'ing ball!
I love the double negative stuff too, wooohooo, talk about... wait a gol'darn minute, misspell on "inherentently" , should be inherently
(cur) (last) 01:41, 2 June 2007 EDIT - talk about silliness He who shall remain nameless said:* (Talk | contribs) (27,427 bytes) (→VC best practices, techniques and skills - pass on the outside is not inherentently non-vehicular)
Last edited by natelutkjohn; 06-02-07 at 05:16 AM.
06-01-07, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Originally Posted by Chipcom
Thus outlining another major flaw of VC, at least the HH brand....it is everything, it is nothing, it is all points in between - and it changes daily, weekly, hourly and sometimes by the minute.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I'll fix it.
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
this is what it currently says:
06-01-07, 10:10 PM
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The whole point of the Wikipedia article is to have an evolving, sometimes by the minute, widely accessible definition of VC. The reason the article evolves is not because VC changes, but because understanding of it evolves, and understanding how to convey various aspects of it evolves. In this case I had a very poorly worded statement. In certain instances, it's absolutely correct. Remember, this was a list of example of non-VC behavior, and, sometimes, passing on the right is non-VC. But the way it was worded made it sound like anytime anyone passed on the right, it wasn't VC. I'm the one who wrote it. I know what I meant.
In any case, I'm not a professional writer, and God knows I make my share of mistakes, perhaps more than my share. But to anyone genuinely trying to understand VC, it's silly to conflate my poor writing with VC changing by the minute.
For the record, there are still many problems with the article and it has a long way to go.
In any case, I'm not a professional writer, and God knows I make my share of mistakes, perhaps more than my share. But to anyone genuinely trying to understand VC, it's silly to conflate my poor writing with VC changing by the minute.
For the record, there are still many problems with the article and it has a long way to go.
06-01-07, 10:16 PM
#312
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So VC doesn't change. But the definition of VC evolves, sometimes by the minute?
Stop these semantic sophistic pedantic games....
But, Helmie, in spite of this - in spite of the squirming, and the silliness - I want you to know something...
We all love you!!!! (Ok, ok, I can't speak for everybody, but I know that at least me and Jesus love you )
Stop these semantic sophistic pedantic games....
But, Helmie, in spite of this - in spite of the squirming, and the silliness - I want you to know something...
We all love you!!!! (Ok, ok, I can't speak for everybody, but I know that at least me and Jesus love you
)
06-01-07, 11:03 PM
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group hug.I tried to read the wikipedia article, but damn, it's long and involved. Maybe I have ADD.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
06-01-07, 11:20 PM
#314
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you have cyclist vainglorious disorder, rando.
THAT is flipping HILARIOUS!!!!! 
Originally Posted by John
Whoever wrote the Wikipedia article doesn't know vehicular cycling.
06-01-07, 11:25 PM
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we've been enjoying the irony for some time now.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
06-01-07, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rando
we've been enjoying the irony for some time now.
...just got home from the bike shop. I generally don't post at work- too busy helping real live bicyclists with their bicycling issues
But gosh darn it, despite john's tiresome prattle, for some of my commute I was riding vehicularily, according to the rules of the road, USING A BIKE LANE!
06-02-07, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
So much for the promotion of Vehicular Cycling... apparently even the biggest acolyte doesn't understand it... Priceless.
06-02-07, 08:33 AM
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Despite this delightful turnabout which will no doubt provide us endless fun for years to come, I'll make a helpful suggestion to both JF and HH concerning the biggest flaw of vc itself (not the personalities that promote it):
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. You've overcomplicated such a simple concept to the point that even those of us who adopt the base premise of vc in general practice reject the monstrosity you have turned it into. Simplfy the definition, drop the wacky politics, don't try to make it some all-encompassing mantra that is more religion than what it actually is - riding on the roads according to the rules of of the road. You guys are your own worst enemy.
KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid. You've overcomplicated such a simple concept to the point that even those of us who adopt the base premise of vc in general practice reject the monstrosity you have turned it into. Simplfy the definition, drop the wacky politics, don't try to make it some all-encompassing mantra that is more religion than what it actually is - riding on the roads according to the rules of of the road. You guys are your own worst enemy.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
06-02-07, 08:59 AM
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for example, just looking at that wiki article makes me want to do almost anything BUT read it. It's a mess. keep it simple, to the point, lose the Phobia and conspiracy theories and the stripe hatred, and you'd have a much more focused message. but, methinks many VC zealots have too much intellectually and emotionally invested in those points to make that happen.
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"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
"Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen
Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me
06-02-07, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Ugh. I was the one who put that in, some two years ago. What I was thinking about was passing on the right when passing on the left is available and the better option. At any rate, this is what it currently says:
Some non-"VC" actions commonly taken by cyclists include:
...
Some non-"VC" actions commonly taken by cyclists include:
...
- Passing slow or stopped traffic on the outside too fast and/or without due care that comes from recognizing the extra danger in passing someone who is in the outside lane unexpectedly on the outside.
06-02-07, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by John Forester
And that is what I have always held to be correct, though I have phrased this as never overtake on the right-hand side of a vehicle that can, and might, turn right.
If there is space on the right of someone in the outside lane for you to use, there is space for them to maybe use, and if they do decide to use it suddenly, they are likely to assume it is unused and not look before suddenly moving into it. This is why I think "passing on the right" requires extra caution, more than most cyclists seem to give it.
06-02-07, 10:12 AM
#322
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
I'm the one who wrote it. I know what I meant.
In any case, I'm not a professional writer, and God knows I make my share of mistakes, perhaps more than my share. But to anyone genuinely trying to understand VC, it's silly to conflate my poor writing...
In any case, I'm not a professional writer, and God knows I make my share of mistakes, perhaps more than my share. But to anyone genuinely trying to understand VC, it's silly to conflate my poor writing...
I think this says mountains... you have often "assulted" readers here on BF for failing to understand your writing... could it simply be that your writing has left more questions than answers at times?
06-02-07, 10:13 AM
#323
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Recently, I was approaching traffic stopped at a red light. There were maybe a half-dozen cars, and the last car, the one right in front of me was still slowing and about to stop. I was debating whether to stop behind, or merge left from my centerish position to split lanes and pass, or merge right into the bike lane and pass on the right, slowing and evaluating the situation accordingly, when suddenly a motorcyclist passed me on my left and continued passing (splitting lanes). This startled the driver of the car that was still slowing who suddenly cut right into the bike lane where he stopped. I was glad I had decided not to pass on the right using the bike lane, even though there was no where for anyone to turn right.
If there is space on the right of someone in the outside lane for you to use, there is space for them to maybe use, and if they do decide to use it suddenly, they are likely to assume it is unused and not look before suddenly moving into it. This is why I think "passing on the right" requires extra caution, more than most cyclists seem to give it.
If there is space on the right of someone in the outside lane for you to use, there is space for them to maybe use, and if they do decide to use it suddenly, they are likely to assume it is unused and not look before suddenly moving into it. This is why I think "passing on the right" requires extra caution, more than most cyclists seem to give it.
06-02-07, 10:34 AM
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I think I'll continue to use my acquired Zen MessengerTM powers to slice and dice traffic as a full member of the fluid, road based chaos that is urban traffic. Don't try to follow me because sometimes there is barely room for one let alone two where the cars don't recognize VC. Thanks to the VC movement for such an entertaining thread...hope shooting yourselves in the foot didn't hurt too too much.
06-02-07, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
I think this says mountains... you have often "assulted" readers here on BF for failing to understand your writing... could it simply be that your writing has left more questions than answers at times?
